The Doll Forum

by **PDutus** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:59 am

Jack White wrote:Hi,
if you are referring to the first picture of the post you quoted, it's a WM-166 Doll.
I wanted it to be produced in <jinsan dark tan> but instead she was produced in <jinsan cocoa/light ebony>.

Greetings,
Jack

Funnily enough, when I was going for a dark-skinned WM, my vendor (Paul at Cloud Climax) recommended that I go for the cocoa one as in his opinion (which I respect) the darker one didn't look very natural.

Happy with the cocoa, although it would be interesting to see the very dark one in the flesh.

by **Jack White** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:52 am

Hi,
if you are referring to the first picture of the post you quoted, it's a WM-166 Doll.
I wanted it to be produced in <jinsan dark tan> but instead she was produced in <jinsan cocoa/light ebony>.

Greetings,
Jack

by **Mitchell Hart** » Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:19 pm

Dollstudio wrote:Hi,

let's update this thread a bit.

Based on material samples we get for Indigo's TPE repair kit, so far we assumed that there is a continuous color shift for the Jinsan skin colors.

According to the most recent narrative, we were wrong.
There is no color shift.
It's much better than just a trite color shift…

Like shown above, there were at least three very similar 'natural' in 2017.
At some point in 2018, the skin color 'dark tan' was phased out or replaced by a new color called 'cocoa'.

Since the Jinsan factory does not have official skin color labels, each vendor invents own labels - or uses labels used by other vendors.
So it is not really clear if old colors are being replaced by new compositions, or if as well labels as the colors itself change.

Now there is a new facette to the skin color lottery: There are no defined skin colors at Jinsan factory!

What gives us this weird idea?

wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-06.jpg

wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-05.jpg
The above are factory photos from Jinsan for a doll in skin color 'cocoa' as of 07/2019.
Both pictures are supposed to show the same doll.
One photo has frontal lightning and the other one has more shadows, so it's credible that both pictures show the same doll.
Everybody has seen this kind of factory confirmation photos.

Confirmation that the doll is right. Well…
How is anyone supposed to assess a skin color with inconsistent color reproductions as above?

Anyway, it gets even crazier.
Believe me, it's real WTF, so please feel free to read on.

The skin color was not exactly as the customer had expected.
He thought he knew because he already had a doll in a skin color he believed to be 'cocoa'.
He could even prove it:

natural-light-tan-tan-cocoa-black.jpg
The picture above shows a selection from the customer's collection. LTR: #35 in 'natural', #266 in 'light tan', #159 in 'tan', #273 in 'cocoa' (this is skin color customer expected), #263 in 'black', and #311 in … 'cocoa'.

#273 and #311 are both cocoa? Really?

If the skin colors of #273 and #311 are not identical in your vision, there is only one explanation: You are color blind!

… but wait, there is yet another much more creative explanation from my TDF-approved supplier for WM:

[…] Factory has no standard on skin tone.
Now the Coca is like that.
Even we make again, it would be different from what he wants. […]
That's a big fat WTF, right?

Sandro

This doll pictured is of real interest to me. What is her make and model I am confused, thanks.

by **FCD94** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:44 am

Dollstudio wrote:@FCD94: Nothing will match if there are no defined skin tones.

Ah crap. Which do you think might be the closest match with the old Medium Tan, based on this update? Would it be Medium??

by **Dollstudio** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:42 am

@Agalmatoreveur: Yes, the TPE composition changes at Jinsan every couple of months.

However, this is normal at all Chinese doll manufacturers I know. Some use different TPE compositions based on the time of the year, I think that has to do with seasonal humidity and/or temperature. Usually these changes serve the purpose of refinement, so it's not a bad thing in principle. But what's bad from my point of view is that these changes always happen unannounced.

Regarding softness I can not confirm that I have seen (touched) a rather firm Jinsan TPE blend in years. If you got one soft and one significantly firmer Jinsan doll in the past months, this might have to do with mysterious entities like overflow factories (e.g. Shang Mei Gong Yi) or even more 'inofficial' sources (e.g. counterfeiting suppliers). Btw, the really bizarre thing is that I have some reports from doll collectors (with 8+ TPE dolls from varying sources) that skin color consistency can be better at counterfeiting factories than at Jinsan. Maybe these try harder to match and reproduce skin colors.

Another 'slightly' strange observation is that in some factories TPE blend firmness seems to depend on the skin color. We noticed that with TPE samples from Hitdoll/Ildoll (Guangzhou Xinzhongyi Environmental Technology Co., Ltd.), same shipment from May 2019. 'White' and 'medium' are medium-soft, 'tan' is firmest and 'dark' is softest. Similar deviations might occur at other factories, too.

Sandro

by **Agalmatoreveur** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:57 am

I'm curious about whether you think this is just about skin tones, or TPE consistency. I've only received three dolls from Jinsan, all three being from this year, but they are all different softness levels. The first was what I'd call "perfect," soft and supple. The second was like a barbie doll (slight exaggeration, but it may as well have been). Great for photography, as it was so hard, you could manipulate the joints easily, but useless as a "companion." The third was super soft, but that was because it was requested that way.

Have you noticed a huge lack of consistency with softness?

by **Dollstudio** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:40 am

@FCD94: Nothing will match if there are no defined skin tones.

If skin tones from 2018, early 2019 and happen to be similar nethertheless, it's just good luck, like winning the lottery.

There is no way to predict the outcome as factory confirmation photos are inconclusive and Jinsan skin tone samples do not have a timestamp, so even with physical samples you wouldn't know which pigmentation composition they represent.

The lack of clearly defines skin tones at Jinsan is the most absurd finding since I am in this business, and it is absolutely horrible to deal with, as well for customers as for vendors!

Sandro

by **Agalmatoreveur** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:31 am

A good start would be if all the vendors stopped this "Light Tan" nonsense, and just used the names Jinsan does, like "Medium" instead of "Light Tan." This only adds to the confusion caused by the lack of consistency with skin tone.

by **FCD94** » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:29 am

... so if we need to order a replacement head for a WM in Medium Tan for example, what matches now???

by **curiousswede** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:50 pm

Really sad that the unregulated industry doesn't take the necessary steps to improve itself. It would benefit everyone in the process if they truly made their production process more "professional", "rigor" and "QC-assured". I speculate shortcuts (particularly cost cuts) are taken because most people would never take this kind of companies (full-sized doll manufacturers) to court.

It would be interesting to actually hear if there are even any Chinese customers who have sued any of the Chinese manufacturers due to "false advertisement", or something similar, or do these customers also find it embarrassing to do so? Or does the Chinese law just not care in this case because of the nature of the products?

Now, I'm not trying to start anything political here. I am just expressing the sadness of this industry that could have been flourishing more than it already is if it could have taken necessary regulatory steps to make the production process more professional, rigor and QC'd.

The fact that there is a need for actual manufacturers and vendors to be "TDF approved" first just shows the reality of the industry of how dicey it can be at some times. With all this said, I have been "lucky" as I got a doll that looked pretty much what I was looking for and that has held up for over a year now despite some shortcomings.

Improve your production process fellow doll manufacturers and you will sell more!

by **Dollstudio** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:51 pm

@Kvn_dvr: The commonly used skin color reference for Jinsan (WM Doll, WM Dolls, YL Doll, OR Doll etc.) is this:

: js-skin-colors.jpg (53.54 KiB) Viewed 3668 times

But please read the posts above. A color reference is not so much worth if the factory does not use it as color reference.

Sandro

by **Kvn_dvr** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:43 pm

Thanks to everyone who posted photos with skin tone labels. This is the reference I’ve been searching for.

by **PDutus** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:28 am

I suspect you see the same issues with other manufacturers, but I might be wrong.

I have two dolls, both JY, and both supposedly tan, but the 175 is quite a bit lighter than the 166, although the consistency between body and head in each case was very good.

But it does make it very difficult if you order a second head for a doll, especially some time after ordering the first doll, and maybe even if you order the second head at the same time. A black choker can help disguise the difference, but only so far.

Surely it is not impossible to get the colour in the TPE mix consistent? Do silicone dolls have the same issues?

by **The Messenger** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:38 pm

Yes, that is a big fat WTF.
I guess this is an unregulated industry that currently has no standards of quality?
what's the likelihood of this ever changing?
I'm sure this type of inconsistency is a result of being cost effective more than anything else.

by **Dollstudio** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:09 pm

Hi,

let's update this thread a bit.

Based on material samples we get for Indigo's TPE repair kit, so far we assumed that there is a continuous color shift for the Jinsan skin colors.

According to the most recent narrative, we were wrong.
There is no color shift.
It's much better than just a trite color shift…

Like shown above, there were at least three very similar 'natural' in 2017.
At some point in 2018, the skin color 'dark tan' was phased out or replaced by a new color called 'cocoa'.

Since the Jinsan factory does not have official skin color labels, each vendor invents own labels - or uses labels used by other vendors.
So it is not really clear if old colors are being replaced by new compositions, or if as well labels as the colors itself change.

Now there is a new facette to the skin color lottery: There are no defined skin colors at Jinsan factory!

What gives us this weird idea?

: wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-06.jpg (316.53 KiB) Viewed 3788 times

: wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-05.jpg (239.28 KiB) Viewed 3788 times

The above are factory photos from Jinsan for a doll in skin color 'cocoa' as of 07/2019.
Both pictures are supposed to show the same doll.
One photo has frontal lightning and the other one has more shadows, so it's credible that both pictures show the same doll.
Everybody has seen this kind of factory confirmation photos.

Confirmation that the doll is right. Well…
How is anyone supposed to assess a skin color with inconsistent color reproductions as above?

Anyway, it gets even crazier.
Believe me, it's real WTF, so please feel free to read on.

The skin color was not exactly as the customer had expected.
He thought he knew because he already had a doll in a skin color he believed to be 'cocoa'.
He could even prove it:

: natural-light-tan-tan-cocoa-black.jpg (171.52 KiB) Viewed 3788 times

The picture above shows a selection from the customer's collection. LTR: #35 in 'natural', #266 in 'light tan', #159 in 'tan', #273 in 'cocoa' (this is skin color customer expected), #263 in 'black', and #311 in … 'cocoa'.

#273 and #311 are both cocoa? Really?

If the skin colors of #273 and #311 are not identical in your vision, there is only one explanation: You are color blind!

… but wait, there is yet another much more creative explanation from my TDF-approved supplier for WM: