The Doll Forum

[quote="Nescio50"]Sorry, I didn't know that 'lowest price guarantee' was also referred to as 'price fixing'. A 'lowest price guarantee' is legal here in NL/EU. I thought this thread was about a manufacturer forcing retailers to sell above a minimum price. Here (NL, most probably EU) that is considered illegal price fixing.[/quote]

Hi fellow Dutchie.! Yep, here companies too can control what price their product is advertised at. The first i heard about that was with the "supermarket/grocery store war" we had in the Netherlands. Advertising name brands discounts under cost as a loss leader.
They didn't do any of those with coca cola. Coca coal would refuse to sell their product to the chain for some time and people would get their weekly groceries at the competitor.

It seems that I did mix-up price matching and price fixing. If I do understand it correctly, price matching (like in matching the lowest price) is legal, but price fixing (agreements to fix a price, to enforce a minimum price) are illegal. Well, most probably in the EU.

I will try to paraphrase…

1) Currently, we [i]do[/i] have [b]minimum retail prices[/b] from an (increasing) number of manufacturers. Minimum retail pricing means, that vendors will/can be cut off when violating the minimum retail prices (= if sell for less than the set minimum retail price). That's a fact.

2) Also, we still have a number of manufacturers without any price regulation. Some of them state [b]recommended retail prices[/b], others permit anything the vendors do. That's a fact, too.

3) Now we have one legal environment - confirmed for the Netherlands and Germany, probably also for the rest of the EU - where any price regulation by the manufacturer is forbidden by law. That means, that any attemps to set minimum retail prices or penalties (sanctions) like cutting a vendor off for selling lower are illegal by the legal standards of this region (Netherland, Germany, probably EU; other areas are unclear).

4) And then we have another legal environment - the U.S. As far as I understand Meso's comments, in the U.S. a manufacturer is allowed to set a minimum retail price [b]and[/b] to sanction violations.

5) And last but not least we have governments that give a s**t about the laws applicable to the private sector of their own economies - e.g. by subsidizing sectors in deficit like coal mining or agriculture, or sanctioning foreign econonomies with penalty customs (e.g. Chinese steel).

If I got that right, Chinese manufacturers have in regard to pricing to deal with at least to totally contrasting economic environmnts - a largely free market (EU) and a somehow controlled market (U.S.). They can try to impose minimum retail prices, but they might get sued for that in the EU.

That would mean that the instruments to sanction harmful price matching (= lowest price guarantee) would be really limited. The best (remaining) option would be recommended retail prices.

Did I understand this right so far?

Sandro

[quote="Nescio50"][quote="Meso"]Price matching is legal (again, U.S.), as it's up to the seller (brick & mortar store or ecom) if they wish to price match. [/quote]
So U.S. allows sellers to agree on (i.e. fix) retail prices, to form a cartel :whistle: [/quote]
Nescio, you aren’t wrong. Individual vendors and retailers have the autonomy to offer whatever prices they want though. Price matching is a vendor’s choice. However, collusion to manipulate pricing between two or more companies (price fixing) is illegal, whether the intention is good or not. It also gets complicated when individual companies become dominant in the market. Predatory pricing is also illegal; when dominant market share is leveraged to operate at a loss to ensure competitors will fail.

[quote="Nescio50"][Responding to Dullahan] Sorry, I didn't know that 'lowest price guarantee' was also referred to as 'price fixing'. A 'lowest price guarantee' is legal here in NL/EU. I thought this thread was about a manufacturer forcing retailers to sell above a minimum price. Here (NL, most probably EU) that is considered illegal price fixing.[/quote]
Nes, lowest price guarantee (aka price matching) is not known as price fixing. I think there was just a misunderstanding here. Your assessment is correct overall, in my experience. It would be illegal for Jinsan or any OEM to collude with vendors to set pricing, even if the intention was to ensure a level playing field for all vendors. Allowing this would be a double-edged sword once all parties realized they could take advantage of this. Humans have a very poor track record of doing the right thing when they have influence and power.

Jeff: No. MAP compliance is totally voluntary by the seller. Just to reiterate, MAP only deals with the advertised price of a brand, not what the item is sold for. Sellers are free to sell the brand at any price they want. I've had lots of dealers (sellers) that told me to F*ck off. That they'll advertise whatever price they want, and that's cool. I appreciate their honesty, and it makes my job easier because instead of continuing to monitor them, I simply lock them out from being able to purchase the brand from all distributors. My goal isn't to punish, but to motivate dealers.
This may shock many, but many countries do the same thing to other countries in the form of sanctions (withholding money to encourage them to change their behavior).
Bringing this into perspective, let's say the top Doll brand in the world wants to protect its well deserved reputation as the number one brand, because honestly it is. They create a MAP policy stating (in essence) sellers are prohibited from whoreingOut their dolls in advertising thus devaluing the brand in the consumers eyes. If you (not you Jeff specifically) had such a brand that you've invested literally everything into and grew into the top brand in the industry, wouldn't you want to protect it too?

Sorry, I didn't know that 'lowest price guarantee' was also referred to as 'price fixing'. A 'lowest price guarantee' is legal here in NL/EU. I thought this thread was about a manufacturer forcing retailers to sell above a minimum price. Here (NL, most probably EU) that is considered illegal price fixing.

[quote="Nescio50"][quote="Meso"]Price matching is legal (again, U.S.), as it's up to the seller (brick & mortar store or ecom) if they wish to price match. [/quote]
So U.S. allows sellers to agree on (i.e. fix) retail prices, to form a cartel :whistle:
Still I read about fines for price fixing in the U.S. ... :? https://www.ft.com/content/569acdec-d2a8-11e6-b06b-680c49b4b4c0

Probably I misinterpreted something ...[/quote]

Yes, when others here are talking about price matching, they refer to the practise of undercutting competitors by offering Lowest Price Guarantee. What you refer is a mutual agreement with all the distributors to keep the prices at a certain level. Both are essentially price-matching, but in a different way.

I think there's been a response.

[attachment=0]Chinese sign.jpg[/attachment]

[quote="Meso"]Price matching is legal (again, U.S.), as it's up to the seller (brick & mortar store or ecom) if they wish to price match. [/quote]
So U.S. allows sellers to agree on (i.e. fix) retail prices, to form a cartel :whistle:
Still I read about fines for price fixing in the U.S. ... :? https://www.ft.com/content/569acdec-d2a8-11e6-b06b-680c49b4b4c0

Probably I misinterpreted something ...

Meso,
And they have the right to not let you sell their products if they find out you are selling to low, correct?
Jeff

What this thread is about is the manufacture's right to not let their product be devalued in advertising. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (U.S) implements two world treaties of 1996, that protects manufacturers in the area of the perceived value of their products. That is, they have the legal right to control what their product may be advertised at - not sold at. Price matching is legal (again, U.S.), as it's up to the seller (brick & mortar store or ecom) if they wish to price match.
Please understand: this is what I do for a living. Everyday I deal with CEO's, National Sales Directors, one down the line on it. They come to me because I'm the expert in the industry when it concerns MAP. Minimum Advertise Pricing (MAP) has been around in the U.S. for a decade now (I know as I was on ground floor when it started). The U.K. doesn't recognize it (which is ass-backwards, but that talk is for another time), nor does China recognize it.
Point is, U.S. doll vendors may cry when a price war breaks out, but that's capitalism at it's best. So sorry you're loosing out as us customers are choosing others to deliver the dolls you sell. We love you. We really do. Your customer service may be the best in the world, but when it comes right down to it, if you aren't able to beat the other vendor's price, well, it's been nice knowing you (don't blame me, I didn't invent the U.s. business structure).

[quote="Booty Call Dolls"]
I get a kick out of those TDF vendors who have a pop up on their site stating " someone in Atlanta just bought a YL155" and then you see the SAME exact pop 30 minutes later or the next day.....
V/r
BCD[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes - it's for that reason that such a vendor for me has less credibility and why for that reason if I hear of a complaint about a doll behaving in an out of the ordinary way, I take it seriously and more-so than a seller who is more focussed on quality than hot selling.

If a seller has such a system on their website then I'm willing to contemplate that such a seller is capable of other ruses in the course of their business and it hardens the absolute of need in robust investigation when queries are raised.

Best wishes

Harem

Price fixing or whatever you want to call it is illegal in many countries.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing )
Knowing this problem as a vendor (nothing regarding dolls) , I'm sure even if it would be legal it won't help.
Knowing the production price of Chinese plastic products, it's no wonder many new manufacturers show up to sell dolls for much lower prices and make good profit with it.
Known manufacturers can raise the price, but this will only work for short time. It's always the customer who makes the price and helps the ones with a better offer.
Dreaming about high prices for cheap products normally doesn't work for vendors and manufacturers in the long run :D

Nope.
The responsibility is two fold.
I have had to get BCD family members new dolls as I am sure Sandro has.
We need to work with our supplier to make it happen if need be.
BCD

[quote="Booty Call Dolls"]harvey48,
In regards to WM, that is because they like Climax want their vendors to sell.
That is their business model and it has worked for them.
BCD[/quote]



Why? So the vendors have the problems IF the doll is defective and the mfg bears NO responsibility?