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Jinshan skin tones - color shift

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Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Dollstudio »

Hi,

this is another post about color consistency and skin tone matching.

It is relevant for all brands and OEM manufacturers that are made at Jinshan factory: WM Doll, WM Dolls, YL Doll, and OR Doll. Potentiall it also applies to related brands like Hitdoll or Jellynew as well.

The claim made was:
The old Jinshan skin tones (usually three, called something like "white", "natural" and "brown") and the new Jinshan skin tones (seven, including "Nava" black) have precise equivalents.
Maybe we are all getting color blind over here, but I asked two persons, and including me, three people with normal vision clearly stated:
Neither the old "brown" nor "natural" skin tones have unequivocal equvalents in the new Jinshan skin tones!
Light skin tones:
jinshan-skin-tones-light-dollstudio.jpg
jinshan-skin-tones-light-dollstudio.jpg (468.98 KiB) Viewed 5439 times
The big chunk on the bottom is a sample of Jinshan's old "Natural" skin tone as it was shipped in 2015 and early 2016.

Visually, the old "Natural" is something in-between the new "white" and new "cream". The old and the new "natural" skin tone are totally different. Visually, the color density of the new "cream" comes closest to the old "natural" skin tone - but the color components are different (the old "natural" has more pink in it).

Dark skin tones:
jinshan-skin-tones-dark-dollstudio.jpg
jinshan-skin-tones-dark-dollstudio.jpg (448.29 KiB) Viewed 5439 times
Again, the old "brown" or "tanned" skin tone does not match with anything of the new skin tones, neither the new "dark tan" nor "tan" nor "light tan". Visually, the color density of the new "light tan" comes closest to the old "tanned/brown" skin tones - but the color components are different (the old "tanned/brown" has more red in it).

How accurate are those skin tone samples? I have no idea. The samples of the new skin tones are pretty recent; the samples of the old skin tones are 1-1.5 years old and were stored in a UV sealed box.

Wanna match the skin tone of an old promotion photo with the current skin tones? Good luck guessing…

Sandro
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Dollstudio »

Hi,

slight skin tone deviations are to be expected even with Jinshan heads and bodies ordered at the same time:
PQC125DSSB97_69_20170428.jpg
PQC125DSSB97_69_20170428.jpg (404.29 KiB) Viewed 5353 times
PQC125DSSB97_73_20170428.jpg
PQC125DSSB97_73_20170428.jpg (413.03 KiB) Viewed 5353 times
The only way to avoid this is the PQC. In this case there were also other issues and the complete doll had to be exchanged.

Sandro
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Dollstudio »

Hi,

here are some new fun facts about Jinshan skin tone consistency:
Hautfarbenvergleich.jpg
Hautfarbenvergleich.jpg (299.42 KiB) Viewed 5172 times
…and then there used to be seven skin tones…
Nochmals neue Hautfarben.jpg
Nochmals neue Hautfarben.jpg (100.77 KiB) Viewed 5172 times
Fascinating.

Sandro (images courtesy of Indigo)
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by ZZZZ »

I find the skin tone inconsistency really annoying, so I posted some photos of TPE samples next to a standard color reference:

Subject: Skin tones vs. ColorChecker - TPE, any manufacturer

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Procrasturbate »

here pics of my doll in the factory today, same camera, different angle... almost looks like 2 different dolls... its all about the lighting.
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by ZZZZ »

Procrasturbate wrote:here pics of my doll in the factory today, same camera, different angle... almost looks like 2 different dolls... its all about the lighting.
I noticed that! But you can take "the lighting" out of the equation if you include a standard color reference in the photo. You just need a program like Photoshop/GIMP to adjust the photo, based on the standard reference.

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Procrasturbate »

sure, but then youre gonna need every factory to buy and use a color card. lol.

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by ZZZZ »

Procrasturbate wrote:sure, but then youre gonna need every factory to buy and use a color card. lol.
I think the Jinsan factory (WM/OR/YL) can afford the $70.

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Dollstudio »

Hi,

let's update this thread a bit.

Based on material samples we get for Indigo's TPE repair kit, so far we assumed that there is a continuous color shift for the Jinsan skin colors.

According to the most recent narrative, we were wrong.
There is no color shift.
It's much better than just a trite color shift…

Like shown above, there were at least three very similar 'natural' in 2017.
At some point in 2018, the skin color 'dark tan' was phased out or replaced by a new color called 'cocoa'.

Since the Jinsan factory does not have official skin color labels, each vendor invents own labels - or uses labels used by other vendors.
So it is not really clear if old colors are being replaced by new compositions, or if as well labels as the colors itself change.

Now there is a new facette to the skin color lottery: There are no defined skin colors at Jinsan factory!

What gives us this weird idea?
wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-06.jpg
wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-06.jpg (316.53 KiB) Viewed 3739 times
wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-05.jpg
wm-dolls-wm-166-body-tisha-no-311-head-factory-05.jpg (239.28 KiB) Viewed 3739 times
The above are factory photos from Jinsan for a doll in skin color 'cocoa' as of 07/2019.
Both pictures are supposed to show the same doll.
One photo has frontal lightning and the other one has more shadows, so it's credible that both pictures show the same doll.
Everybody has seen this kind of factory confirmation photos.

Confirmation that the doll is right. Well…
How is anyone supposed to assess a skin color with inconsistent color reproductions as above?

Anyway, it gets even crazier.
Believe me, it's real WTF, so please feel free to read on.

The skin color was not exactly as the customer had expected.
He thought he knew because he already had a doll in a skin color he believed to be 'cocoa'.
He could even prove it:
natural-light-tan-tan-cocoa-black.jpg
natural-light-tan-tan-cocoa-black.jpg (171.52 KiB) Viewed 3739 times
The picture above shows a selection from the customer's collection. LTR: #35 in 'natural', #266 in 'light tan', #159 in 'tan', #273 in 'cocoa' (this is skin color customer expected), #263 in 'black', and #311 in … 'cocoa'.

#273 and #311 are both cocoa? Really?

If the skin colors of #273 and #311 are not identical in your vision, there is only one explanation: You are color blind!

… but wait, there is yet another much more creative explanation from my TDF-approved supplier for WM:
[…] Factory has no standard on skin tone.
Now the Coca is like that.
Even we make again, it would be different from what he wants. […]
That's a big fat WTF, right?

Sandro
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by The Messenger »

Yes, that is a big fat WTF.
I guess this is an unregulated industry that currently has no standards of quality?
what's the likelihood of this ever changing?
I'm sure this type of inconsistency is a result of being cost effective more than anything else.
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by PDutus »

I suspect you see the same issues with other manufacturers, but I might be wrong.

I have two dolls, both JY, and both supposedly tan, but the 175 is quite a bit lighter than the 166, although the consistency between body and head in each case was very good.

But it does make it very difficult if you order a second head for a doll, especially some time after ordering the first doll, and maybe even if you order the second head at the same time. A black choker can help disguise the difference, but only so far.

Surely it is not impossible to get the colour in the TPE mix consistent? Do silicone dolls have the same issues?
My girls:
Sophie - JY 175 (JY Head #167)
Valentina - JY 175 (JY Head #101)
Kiania - Sino 161 (Heads S6 & S7)
Rashona - WM 172B (WM Head #64)
Helga - JY 166 (JY head #101)
Patsy - JY 166 (JY Head #102)
Ingrid - JY 166 (SM Head #76)
Monique - JY 165SR (JY Head #134)

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Kvn_dvr »

Thanks to everyone who posted photos with skin tone labels. This is the reference I’ve been searching for.

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by Dollstudio »

@Kvn_dvr: The commonly used skin color reference for Jinsan (WM Doll, WM Dolls, YL Doll, OR Doll etc.) is this:
js-skin-colors.jpg
js-skin-colors.jpg (53.54 KiB) Viewed 3619 times
But please read the posts above. A color reference is not so much worth if the factory does not use it as color reference.

Sandro
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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by curiousswede »

Really sad that the unregulated industry doesn't take the necessary steps to improve itself. It would benefit everyone in the process if they truly made their production process more "professional", "rigor" and "QC-assured". I speculate shortcuts (particularly cost cuts) are taken because most people would never take this kind of companies (full-sized doll manufacturers) to court.

It would be interesting to actually hear if there are even any Chinese customers who have sued any of the Chinese manufacturers due to "false advertisement", or something similar, or do these customers also find it embarrassing to do so? Or does the Chinese law just not care in this case because of the nature of the products?

Now, I'm not trying to start anything political here. I am just expressing the sadness of this industry that could have been flourishing more than it already is if it could have taken necessary regulatory steps to make the production process more professional, rigor and QC'd.

The fact that there is a need for actual manufacturers and vendors to be "TDF approved" first just shows the reality of the industry of how dicey it can be at some times. With all this said, I have been "lucky" as I got a doll that looked pretty much what I was looking for and that has held up for over a year now despite some shortcomings.

Improve your production process fellow doll manufacturers and you will sell more! :glou:

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Re: Jinshan skin tones - color shift

Post by FCD94 »

... so if we need to order a replacement head for a WM in Medium Tan for example, what matches now??? 8O

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