Skeleton details ?

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:31 am

Looking for current photos and or diagrams of the skeleton. Tried to search forum, no luck.

Included instructions only say that the joints are stiff at first, then are easier to move after use.

It's possible for the joint to gimbal lock and get stuck. If you think the joint is simply stiff and you try to force a gimbal locked joint, it can bend or break the hardware.

Would be most helpful to see how the skeleton is made to know how to free up a locked joint without damaging.
Was able to find one small photo:

Anung Un Rama · Post by **Anung Un Rama** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:41 pm

Apparent joint locking can occur if the joint has been torsioned into a position that is out of axial alignment with it designed range of motion, such that the muliple facets joints (multi articulated) can become "knoted" as in bond and twisted tight, so that the fulcrums of the joint assembly are interferring with each others movement....as in they are in each others way.
"
This means to get this sorted, you need to gently manipulate the joints in the range of motion they can travel, to loosen the "knot", until you can get gentle motion in other movement planes as well, until you reset the joints back standard position.

This may require torsion, flexion and extension to namw just a few to cover of on X,Y and Z axis or movent.

Good Luck...and most of Passion Dolls range will have a JINSAN chassis, with the exception of the Penelope made at another factory.

Anung

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:32 am

Thanks, I think that's a pretty good definition of gimbal lock, usually in reference to camera tracking systems and can even happen with simulated virtual cameras, such as in 3D game point of view cameras.

I carefully undid a "knot" and all's good, as you described, aligning the axis and torsion/rotation to a neutral position, then moving on only one axis at a time to pose.

Must have tried to move diagonally across 2 axis with twist out of alignment when the joint locked.

If it's not proprietary, would be nice to see details on the "JINSAN chassis" and have a clear idea of the axis of each joint. Are they all the same design except for height/length?

Also, how do we know which model has an articulated back/spine or not. I don't want to break anything trying to move a back joint, not knowing if it's very stiff or actually no joint there?

Post by **TripleA** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:42 am

Good luck trying to get a manufacturer to provide any info concerning anything related to skeletons!

symmes · Post by **symmes** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:02 am

TripleA wrote:Good luck trying to get a manufacturer to provide any info concerning anything related to skeletons!

It occurs to me that there is a way to get that information: Put together a collection to purchase a "sacrificial" doll, to be cut open (yes, I know, the horror!) and its skeleton carefully examined and documented by somebody interested in doing this work. (Maybe a vendor would be willing to do this.) Obviously you'd need a fairly cheap doll and/or a large number of "takers" to get this done. Kickstarter or something like it would be a good platform for getting this done.

If somebody has an old beat-up doll of little value, it might be sacrificed for this, but of course an old doll's skeleton might not closely match a new one's, so this wouldn't be as valuable.

Also obviously, different manufacturers have different skeletons, so you'd need to repeat this "autopsy" for every manufacturer in which you're interested, and maybe for different product lines or sizes for each manufacturer.

Personally, I'd be willing to kick in $10 or $20 to such an endeavor on a Jinsan doll.

Post by **PassionDolls** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:32 pm

While, I have photos of the skeleton, I am not allow to show it, sorry. Factory rule.

imverynuts · Post by **imverynuts** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:34 pm

PassionDolls wrote:While, I have photos of the skeleton, I am not allow to show it, sorry. Factory rule.

While I'm sure this is to prevent competitors figuring it all out, it seems like a even moderately determined competitor could just buy the doll and cut her open. It's not like this is a cryptic recipe or encrypted firmware. Oh well.

CrazyCajun · Post by **CrazyCajun** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:19 am

Well,

No:1: Most of the TPE doll manufacturers use the same skeleton, a few of them use a skeleton that is almost identical to what most others use with very little modifications.

No:2: It is My Opinion and Only My Opinion that the real reason that very few manufacturers will release any information, let alone any real images of their skeletons is that:{they all use the same skeleton} and they really don't want the buying public to know how bad they are. Fact: I knew that the gooseneck design was bad, but after actually removing one, I discovered exactly how horrible a design it really was. I and others made many attempts to work with vendors and manufacturers to improve this design. NONE of the manufacturers would even admit that there was and issue. So I designed my own and implemented it in my dolls. Since then I have been made aware of Two manufacturers that have moved away from this gooseneck design, One I know for sure has and One I have only heard has, but I don't know for sure. I have not been able to find any reviews on either one of these dolls.

No:3: There are other improvements that could be implemented on these skeletons for sure, the hands being second only to the terrible gooseneck neck assembly. But until forced to by the purchasing public these improvements will not happen. And to retrofit a hand would indeed be a very hard task to accomplish. I know retrofitting a neck assembly is hard enough.

The following Statements are only reflective of my personal experience! And really not intended to offend anyone. Only to pass on information that I have experienced!
I have even attempted to get a manufacturer to send me a skeleton "at my expense" and let me modify it and send it back "at my expense" and then mold a doll using my modified skeleton. "NO TAKERS" So in conclusion, the only way these changes will happen is if we the purchasing public refuse to purchase unless the manufacturers will provide proof of what we are getting for our "NOT SO SMALL" investment.

Anung Un Rama · Post by **Anung Un Rama** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:37 am

PassionDolls wrote:While, I have photos of the skeleton, I am not allow to show it, sorry. Factory rule.

Doug does not even let me see them (even to try and improve the designe in them), and he knows I allready know what they they look like...but its a patent thing....so unless you find one thats tossed out, or have say a 7 of 9 spare parts doll awaiting reassimilation and parts...you will never know

Also...glad I could help you out DNA.....Thats what we are here for.....

ANung

FlashGordoll · Post by **FlashGordoll** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:18 am

I know where there are photos of a dismantled TPE dolls skeleton (brand name beginning with the letter V).

However, I'm unsure whether posted links or pictures of the skeleton will be against forum rules or rub anyone up the wrong way. They are not my photos but photos from a member of another forum.

Aber · Post by **Aber** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 am

A patent (/ˈpætənt/ or /ˈpeɪtənt/) is a set of exclusive rights granted by a sovereign state to an inventor or assignee for a limited period of time in exchange for detailed public disclosure of an invention. An invention is a solution to a specific technological problem and is a product or a process.

I'm perplexed.

If these skeletons are patented then surely to use said patent one just purchases a licence as the details are public. Once a design is patented if you believe another doll infringes the patent then aren't there legal recourses? Isn't that the whole point of a patent?

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:10 am

Thanks all, I appreciate the "chassis " design being proprietary,

What about a simple diagram with doll outline that shows where joints are located?

I have a couple that have stiff back joints, but just enough to hold position and that's good.

The new one's back seems to be locked or possibly fixed. I don't want to force anything, but if I know for sure where the joint is, then I can very carefully start flexing the back joint.
Otherwise totally awesome flawless doll, very happy:
https://www.passiondolls.com/product/bu ... ll-tania-a

Post by **PassionDolls** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:27 pm

Because I work with almost all factories I do not want to get into this mess by saying which is better etc.

But I can say this, if you give me ideas on how to improve it that is cost effective I can put pressure on them to do better.

Now, regarding the patent thing, I will stay mum BUT I want to point out that a lot of stuff saying on this forum is wrong regarding patent and lawsuit. Their is no lawsuit regarding the patent, the only lawsuit against one another is the design (i.e. company A making, say a 145cm doll looks too much like company B 145cm doll such as same body/face combo. In other words like another mobile phone copying an iphone making their phone look just like an iphone).

Now I've said more than I should, so let's not get this explode up into a big mess OK?

I won't response to patent or lawsuit questions but if you have idea or whatever I will look into it.

Post by **Booty Call Dolls** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:15 pm

Doug,
Chances are you know...the fingers....and when they detach, not very easy to fix.
Best,
Jeff aka BCD

mark81 · Post by **mark81** » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:25 pm

PassionDolls,
can fingers with inner skeleton with joints be an option for a doll?
I'm sure some buyers will pay for this.

Why manufacturer doesn't offer such fingers?