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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:49 pm 
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I am really liking where you're going with this. The idea of having everything pre-attached is interesting. I plan to replace the finger wires completely, which I have seen done in a WM Doll video, and that might take some doing too. Trying to think about using something other than twisted copper.



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:32 pm 
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CinnamonLover wrote:
I am really liking where you're going with this. The idea of having everything pre-attached is interesting. I plan to replace the finger wires completely, which I have seen done in a WM Doll video, and that might take some doing too. Trying to think about using something other than twisted copper.


Is the TPE firmly fixed to the wires, or could the wires be pulled through the TPE to remove them and perhaps pull along a replacement without having to open up the entire finger? Or would it be necessary to make a longitudinal slice in the finger to expose the entire wire to remove/replace it?
As for attaching everything ahead of time, I think it could really simplify things... but it might require a really large "incision" into the hand/TPE to do that. Still, once the new wrist/palm was in place with the receiving ends to match the finger wires, all that would be needed might be to crimp on some wire connectors to join the finger remnants to the new hand and then seal it all up. I've seen these flexible "rulers" used for architectural drawing and drafting to make infinitely variable curves... they can be bent over and over into new curves. I wonder if a smaller version might be available that could replace the copper wire and last longer as "bones" for the fingers?



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:53 am 
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briwri01 wrote:

Is the TPE firmly fixed to the wires, or could the wires be pulled through the TPE to remove them and perhaps pull along a replacement without having to open up the entire finger? Or would it be necessary to make a longitudinal slice in the finger to expose the entire wire to remove/replace it?
As for attaching everything ahead of time, I think it could really simplify things... but it might require a really large "incision" into the hand/TPE to do that. Still, once the new wrist/palm was in place with the receiving ends to match the finger wires, all that would be needed might be to crimp on some wire connectors to join the finger remnants to the new hand and then seal it all up. I've seen these flexible "rulers" used for architectural drawing and drafting to make infinitely variable curves... they can be bent over and over into new curves. I wonder if a smaller version might be available that could replace the copper wire and last longer as "bones" for the fingers?


I have a video of someone at WM actually removing the entire copper finger wire. It takes a little working, but yes, you can pull them right out and the finger returns (with a little poking) to its normal shape (just "boneless"). Presumably, though the video did not show this part, they then insert a new copper wire. Or they at least implied that is the next step.

There was a thread that showed an idea like that ruler - do you have a pic? I wonder if they can be purchased online. Several members have come up with very clever designs, though there are always questions about whether or not they would work in the field.



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Hmmm... if you rounded a bare copper replacement wire on the ends, and lubed it with vaseline, I bet it would go back in fairly easy, since I would guess you are going to be sort of gouging out a channel pulling that wrapped wire out!
Don't have a photo handy of that type of ruler, but Office Max and Office Depot always used to have them. Trouble is, they are too big to fit in fingers. You would have to find some of the same material only much smaller in cross section.



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Not understanding how sub-boards work and why I might post in one place or another, I posted my finger repair attempt in the other thread and will reference it here. Both threads are basically about the same thing.

http://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=85084&p=1170143#p1170143

Mods - would you mind telling me which place I should be posting or if it matters?



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:35 am 
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[quote="CinnamonLover"]Not understanding how sub-boards work and why I might post in one place or another, I posted my finger repair attempt in the other thread and will reference it here. Both threads are basically about the same thing. quote]

Same here I do not quite understand this either! And Hi CinnamonLover, had a great time at the meet and it was indeed an honor to meet you and everyone! Say HI to Nutmeg for me and tell Cinnamon that April, and the girls and I all look forward to meeting her next year!



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:09 pm 
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CrazyCajun wrote:
Same here I do not quite understand this either! And Hi CinnamonLover, had a great time at the meet and it was indeed an honor to meet you and everyone! Say HI to Nutmeg for me and tell Cinnamon that April, and the girls and I all look forward to meeting her next year!


Oh my GOSH Cajun aren't you the sweetest thing! We had a blast! Cinnamon would reply on her own but she's in surgery again today, getting the fingers on her right hand fixed just like her left, and CinnamonLover is doing the surgery and taking the pictures, so I'm hop-skip-jump style typing this in for everyone.

Cinnamon is waving with her good hand (holding her other hand very still for the procedure) and says she can't wait to see what these meets are all about, having seen our pictures and heard how much fun we had.

I really enjoyed meeting April and the girls too!



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:38 pm 
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CinnamonLover wrote:
I have a TPE doll: WM170 M-cup.

CinnamonLover wrote:
What I found before I began my work looked like this:
Attachment:
Skeleton-Hand2.jpg
where the plate and coils are in the "palm" and the copper wire is roughly where the finger begins.

CinnamonLover wrote:
Yeah Coral, that's what I was expecting, but when I got in there I did not see any coiled springs. Just some thread wrapped around the copper wires, and very short at that.


Are you saying the 170Ms have copper wires coming directly out of the palm plate, with no coiled springs at all? I have a WM165K from September 2016, and it most definitely has coiled springs in the palm area like the picture. I can feel them when I pinch the hands. Though I would guess they are shorter in length than the palm plate while picture makes it seem they are at least as long if not longer. The copper wire actually inserts half to one centimeter into the coiled springs. I've had one finger wire pop out of the spring and it took a little bit of wiggling to get it back in. (Frankly, the wires should go much deeper into the springs, perhaps all the way to the plate to prevent this, but then it probably leads to more breakages as the fingers are bent. It's also possible that the wire simply broke half to one centimeter inside the spring but this seems unlikely.)

I thought the coiled springs was one of the features of the new and improved 2016 hands along with the thicker finger wires. I'm rather surprised if WM dropped the coiled springs from later models with entirely new skeletons like the 170M, because I've had no wire pokethroughs in nearly 13 months of ownership with this hand design. This indicates either I'm especially lucky to have avoided serious finger damage, am much more careful with my dolls hands than other owners (I don't particularly think so), or the coils do indeed provide an extra layer of protection against pokethrough (particularly at the first knuckle.) If later models have dropped the coiled springs, I would be interested to gauge whether other WM165 D or K owners (or any other models with coiled springs in hands) have less damage on average than those without.


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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Aprils hands had the coils, the wire went all the way thru them and looped at the back of the palm plate which was just a piece of tubing that was mashed around the springs. I will post photos as soon as I get the chance.
In her hands the wire could not be removed from the springs because of the tubing, so I had no choice but to replace the existing palm plates with new units. I made them with replaceable finger wires. Actually I made the palm plates so that they are much wider than the original and extend to about the mid point of the palm, then the wires start, this allows her to still wrap her palm somewhat around an item that she is holding. So far so good. And April and I both owe a HUGE debt of gratitude to CinnamonLover for the information that he shared with us on how to do this!


PS: April is a WMDolls 153cm from October/November of 2015



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:28 pm 
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I'd love to see a photo side by side of old plate and finger assembly vs new plate and finger assembly for sizing comparisons. Wider sounds very nice - the existing plates are too damned thin. I feel like I'm going to press Brie's thumb into her pinky when squeezing her palm to rotate wrist. The palm is 7cm wide but the wrist plate, at my best attempt at measurement without slicing her open, is only 2.4cm wide. That's a lot of TPE to crush before you can grip the plate to rotate.


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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:12 pm 
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JunkGuy; I am sorry, I didn't get any photos of the finished palm plates along side the originals, but I just now took these of the blank that is the pattern for the finished units.

This one is of the blank or pattern with the original by its side:

Image

This one is of the original sitting atop of the blank or pattern:

Image

April is a WMDolls 153cm doll from October/November 2015. I would assume that most Jinsan dolls of similar size would have a similar palm plate!
As you can see the size difference is substantial!

In this photo the palm plate is pretty much in the correct placement as it was installed!

Image

Hope this helps!



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:23 am 
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JunkGuy wrote:
Are you saying the 170Ms have copper wires coming directly out of the palm plate, with no coiled springs at all? I have a WM165K from September 2016, and it most definitely has coiled springs in the palm area like the picture. I can feel them when I pinch the hands.

I thought the coiled springs was one of the features of the new and improved 2016 hands along with the thicker finger wires. I'm rather surprised if WM dropped the coiled springs from later models with entirely new skeletons like the 170M, because I've had no wire pokethroughs in nearly 13 months of ownership with this hand design.


I am new to dolls, well, sorta. By time I'm new but I guess I've done a lot in my three-and-a-half months. Even though for almost half of that time I was not with my doll. Got the first Cinnamon body on June 30th, so basically July-August-Sept and today is just past 1/2 through October. I just got my second Cinnamon body (long story).

However, that is exactly what I'm saying: when I opened the first doll's palm, there were no coils at all. Not anywhere on the length of copper wire. Maybe that's why they broke so easily. Funny enough I thought I could feel the coils too, when I pinched her palms, but when I got in there, no coils. Now inside the plate, not outside the plate, nowhere.

I don't know about the new doll. Her hands feel more sturdy than the old doll, but I've only had her two days and I'm taking a whole new level of care with her fingers because though I did do the operation on the first doll, I'd just as soon not have to.



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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:21 am 
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MJ has no coils as far as I can see. She's a September (probably August) WM140. She has a wire that has been doubled over, and twisted and wrapped with string. The wires are epoxied into the palm plate. When the wires come loose the remaining wires and epoxy become an abrasive surface. These cause even more damage to the doll.

I'm of the opinion, that until they fix the hands, I will not buy another doll. These wires that break in a few months are unacceptable in a product that cost this much.


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 Post subject: Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:03 am 
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There has always been issues with the wire, even the high end dolls have these issues, but because of the thicker wire that they use and the fact that silicone is denser than TPE they don't usually have these issues as badly, but it does seem that the newer TPE dolls are having much more issues than even the dolls produced only a year ago. It seems as though it is becoming common place for the hands to basically fall apart in 90 days or less. I have actually seen dolls that were not 30 days old with multiple finger breaks. The sad part is, we keep on buying them!
As long as their sales numbers stay high, you can bet it will not change, at least not for the good of doll enthusiasts!

( All statements above is SOLELY MY PERSONAL OPINIONS ) based on my experience and what I have personally seen!



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