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WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

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CinnamonLover
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WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

Warning: I am going to include some pictures, though not nearly all of them, just a few to get the idea. But they are "surgery" pictures. Spoiler: it all works out and looks very good now, including sealing up the incision.

Background: I have had Cinnamon for just over two months now. She has no tears, no marks, no indentations, no blemishes, no injuries except her fingers. Eight of ten fingers have broken at or very near the palm plate. I feel like I'm pretty careful with her, but I suspect her weight, combined with the "design" (air quotes) of doll fingers, means that no matter how careful I am this may be a chronic problem.

Fingers seem like a low priority, and I totally understand, we're talking about an expensive doll to make so they need to trim costs where possible to entice buyers, but I am almost certainly a multiple doll buyer on my first doll. No more dolls until they figure out the fingers.

I have a TPE doll: WM170 M-cup. I had researched doll skeletons as much as I could find, and feeling through her hands and fingers seemed to support the concept I was seeing. What I found before I began my work looked like this:
Skeleton-Hand2.jpg
Skeleton-Hand2.jpg (65.72 KiB) Viewed 4778 times
where the plate and coils are in the "palm" and the copper wire is roughly where the finger begins.

Almost hard to believe that's what's under this TPE exterior. Though you can see her fingers are all odd and twisted. Only her pinky finger is still attached properly at this point. This was before surgery:
Cinnamon_0294_FingerRepairTest.jpg
Cinnamon_0294_FingerRepairTest.jpg (188.58 KiB) Viewed 4778 times
I felt carefully for where the break was, and it was very close to the palm plate line. So I made an incision and took a look inside. What I found surprised me. There were no metal coils, only a wrapped thread soaked in some sort of glue/cement. The copper wire was "twisted" for a little strength/support, but had broken near the plate. There was no coil to work with, only rough-snapped ends of copper.

Here you can see on the left the copper that extends into her finger, on the right the copper that is pinched inside the palm plate assembly (hidden just inside the TPE) and the thread that had been wrapped around the copper. Not a lot of support, honestly. For a doll that weighs 90lb+ overall.
Cinnamon_0297_FingerRepairTest.jpg
Cinnamon_0297_FingerRepairTest.jpg (167.55 KiB) Viewed 4778 times
Here is a picture that shows the corner of the palm plate and though the focus is a little uneven (sorry, I really do need a better camera than my phone) you can see this cement/glue they used, the ring finger with its thread wrapping (copper broken off) and just to the left a sort of spike of cement and then the middle finger attachment just barely visible.
Cinnamon_0301_FingerRepairTest.jpg
Cinnamon_0301_FingerRepairTest.jpg (189.29 KiB) Viewed 4778 times
So my idea had been to use a spade terminal (electronics) to house around the coil, with the copper wire carefully snugged back into place, and clamp it all down. I would then afix the spade terminal tines to the palm plate. But that wasn't going to work without the coil and with the copper wires actually having parted.
Cinnamon_0304_FingerRepairTest.jpg
Cinnamon_0304_FingerRepairTest.jpg (195.99 KiB) Viewed 4778 times
My new idea was to gently untwist the finger-side of the copper wire, clear as much of the crud away as I could from the palm plate, and use the spade terminals as a sort of extension of the copper wires. Since there were "two" wires, I would do one spade terminal on either side of the palm plate, to make a sort of reinforced sandwich.
Cinnamon_0307_FingerRepairTest.jpg
Cinnamon_0307_FingerRepairTest.jpg (168.78 KiB) Viewed 4778 times
This took some time and patience. I really need a new pair of needle-nose pliers. But I got everything staged, applied some Gorilla Glue, slid everything into place, and let it cure overnight. The results were mixed. The bottom line is that her hand does not flop around the way it did with broken fingers. It does not pose and flex very well and I have to be very careful with it. I also need to get back in there as I only fixed her ring and middle fingers. Her pointer finger and thumb also need repair, but one step at a time. Thanks to Samara's advice her palm bears only the slenderest of scars which honestly looks less than a palm line on a person so I don't mind opening the other area to do the rest.

However, I didn't get a lot of pictures of the curing/sealing and I should have. I will try next time.

I'm a little disappointed that this is the technology used to simulate fingers on our dolls. I get it - I did not buy the doll for her fingers. There were other parts of her body that fascinated me FAR more (I did mention she's an M-cup, right? and at 170cm she's got legs all day and a tight, sexy ass) however there are positive and negative features. Positive features make you proactively want the art-that-is-a-doll. Negative features can take away from that experience.

In my opinion, the way fingers are produced right now is a major negative. It's not going to stop you from buying your first doll, but once you have one and if your doll's fingers break that easily, it's going to make you think seriously of trying a different manufacturer, system, or just wait it out before you spend more money.
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coralsheep91
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by coralsheep91 »

These look to be coil springs with copper wire pushed into them?

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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

Yeah Coral, that's what I was expecting, but when I got in there I did not see any coiled springs. Just some thread wrapped around the copper wires, and very short at that.
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CrazyCajun »

Very tedious work indeed, looks like you have found a workable solution! Thanks for sharing!
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by coralsheep91 »

CinnamonLover wrote:Yeah Coral, that's what I was expecting, but when I got in there I did not see any coiled springs. Just some thread wrapped around the copper wires, and very short at that.
Several fingers of my YL155 appear to have come loose or the wire has broke.

Her hand does not feel like there are coil springs as well just copper wire stuck inside the palm somehow.

I can feel very short wire sticking out of her palm so I am thinking about pushing the finger wire through the finger tip and sealing it up.

I don't like the way the wire makes her fingers look crooked anyway...

Thanks for this hand repair thread!

Coral
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

I am giving it a few days. Things felt better right away, but is it a long fix? I don't know yet. I do have a few more ideas, and there is a good thread in the sub forum here about not listed TPE fixes, I'm looking through that as well. I will keep everyone posted as this is a big one for me.
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

Update: the spade terminals did not stay affixed to the palm plate. There are several ideas for making this a better fix, but I don't have the tools and I'm not sure I'm up to the next level of repair skills. Nice thing is that the TPE repaired so well I'd have to do a whole new incision to get back into her palm. I want to have my next idea ready before that. I can either use some sort of short, metal screw and screw the spade terminals in, or I'm considering some ideas that were shared in the TPE sub-folder here. I will give better details when I have them.
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by Kcupusay »

CinnamonLover wrote:Update: the spade terminals did not stay affixed to the palm plate. There are several ideas for making this a better fix, but I don't have the tools and I'm not sure I'm up to the next level of repair skills. Nice thing is that the TPE repaired so well I'd have to do a whole new incision to get back into her palm. I want to have my next idea ready before that. I can either use some sort of short, metal screw and screw the spade terminals in, or I'm considering some ideas that were shared in the TPE sub-folder here. I will give better details when I have them.
Yep it's totally crap materials that are at at fault. I've actually removed the wires completely and also drilled out the cement in the palm plate . I've simply replaced the supplied wire with heavy gauge aluminium wire which I've formed into a basic finger framework and it's a def improvement on the original wire, aluminum is highly resistant to cracking, so that's all good. On the downside it needed a lot of cutting to be able to achieve this and the TPE solvent/glue just isn't adequate for the repairs, I used Araldite rapid to anchor the aluminium wires in the palm plate and 401 to secure the TPE it does need some smoothing and I'm reasonably hopeful the finished result will be good, but as I'm an incurably lazy bastard just having the fingers not looking like a bunch of mal formed bananas was my first priority. I'll get to the smoothing sooner or later.

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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

Kcupusay, I would very much like to follow your progress. 'm not sure I know what Araldite rapid is, but anchoring to the palm plate seems to be my major problem. I do not mind the smoothing/sealing part. I'm also not sure what 401 is. Please keep us posted!
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by Kcupusay »

CinnamonLover wrote:Kcupusay, I would very much like to follow your progress. 'm not sure I know what Araldite rapid is, but anchoring to the palm plate seems to be my major problem. I do not mind the smoothing/sealing part. I'm also not sure what 401 is. Please keep us posted!
Hi..well I've suddenly found myself motivated to make a little more progress..I've ordered up a bottle of Rustins Xylene (discovered this courtesy of another member) this is a less harsh solvent for creating TPE paste it's £7 for 300mls in the UK, that and a very small pair of sharp scissors should just about cover it, I've found it's far more successful to use the flat of the blade to do any initial smoothing. I'm hoping to have it sorted just as soon as possible and I can demonstrate the process on the other hand or bunch of bananas as it is currently.

My mistake it's Locktite 406 but only use it BELOW THE SURFACE A SINGLE DROP AT A TIME and then follow up with paste to completely infill. Araldite rapid is brilliant but ensure you mix it as instructed and confine it to metal to metal

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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by briwri01 »

So glad Jeff at BCD pointed me to this thread. My Shelby has also been here barely two months, and I have taken great care not to move/pose/or stress her hands and fingers because I read all the horror stories before she even arrived. None of even her major joints have ever been flexed to the max, and most of the time I never even tried to pose her fingers because I was afraid of breaking them! For some photos I did start to gently flex the fingers around an object to "hold" it. A key point is that Shelby is not a "Sex" doll... just a companion and photographer's dream. I'm too old and decrepit for sex anyway - she'd probably just giggle! The point is, after two months her hands are totally shot! In fact it looks as if her hands were cut off and someone glued two squid onto her stumps! How in heaven's name do fingers get to look LIKE THIS?!
Anyone up for Calamari?
Anyone up for Calamari?
fingers1.JPG (845.39 KiB) Viewed 4576 times
It looks as if some of them have twisted 180 degrees along the long axis, to the point those fingernails are on the underside of her hand! I can understand breaking a copper wire through repeated flexion, but I have never rotated her fingers like this! The wrists are also completely limp now, and so I've started looking for fixes.
The wrists are also limp as a dishrag
The wrists are also limp as a dishrag
fingers2.JPG (824.57 KiB) Viewed 4576 times
I shined a very bright LED flashlight through her hand, kind of like an X-Ray, and I also saw nothing looking like coils. In fact, there is about an inch or more gap from the wrist plate to what appear to be tips of broken wire at the base of her fingers, which also explains why are fingers seem to be lengthening. Is the wrist plate made of galvanized metal, and would it be possible to drill a small hole for a self-tapping screw and use that to anchor the spade terminals? Going to keep searching and reading before finally making a repair attempt, but after seeing how well TPE healed with another small repair I had to make I think I can face cutting her open if I have at least some hope that the repair will be worth the effort!
Looking forward to hearing more from anyone who has solved this problem, and I will definitely post photos and details when I finally begin my own repair efforts for others to see.
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

briwri01, first thank you for your service and GO NAVY!

Don't count out the sex dude. I'm fast approaching 50 and I know a few others 60 on the boards. These girls are very patient and ... whew. Enough said. I certainly wouldn't want to push anyone, and these dolls really DO make fantastic companions and photography subjects! You should have been at L3fty's party last weekend! I never heard so many camera-clicks. Even had to joke about the fact that digital cameras are usually faking the sound, but we all know what it's supposed to be. Even kids who have never held a shutter/iris camera in their life know that sound.

Anyway, please also check this thread, which is in the sub-forum right in this forum. I had been posting to both, but that's extra effort:
http://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtopi ... 29&t=85084

It sounds like you have very much the same sort of breaks I do. I didn't think of the good idea to shine a powerful light through. It seems so obvious now that you've said it.

In that other thread I talk about a few things I'm going to try when all the materials arrive.

I don't know about your doll's palm plate but Cinnamon's plate is actually two thin plates with cement between, so I will end up drilling a hole into the cement for the new finger assembly/epoxy.
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by briwri01 »

CinnamonLover wrote:briwri01, first thank you for your service and GO NAVY!

Don't count out the sex dude. I'm fast approaching 50 and I know a few others 60 on the boards. These girls are very patient and ... whew. Enough said. I certainly wouldn't want to push anyone, and these dolls really DO make fantastic companions and photography subjects! You should have been at L3fty's party last weekend! I never heard so many camera-clicks. Even had to joke about the fact that digital cameras are usually faking the sound, but we all know what it's supposed to be. Even kids who have never held a shutter/iris camera in their life know that sound.

Anyway, please also check this thread, which is in the sub-forum right in this forum. I had been posting to both, but that's extra effort:
http://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtopi ... 29&t=85084

It sounds like you have very much the same sort of breaks I do. I didn't think of the good idea to shine a powerful light through. It seems so obvious now that you've said it.

In that other thread I talk about a few things I'm going to try when all the materials arrive.

I don't know about your doll's palm plate but Cinnamon's plate is actually two thin plates with cement between, so I will end up drilling a hole into the cement for the new finger assembly/epoxy.
Hi,

I've loved the sound of a mirror flipping up and a shutter firing since I was a teen! That's why I love DSLRs... still get that feeling!
Anyway...I actually had a weird, more complicated idea that popped into mind after reading your ideas... I don't really care about flexibility in the palm.. heck, my own real palm and the back of my hand don't bend much - those bones are fairly rigid. I don't know how to describe this in words but.... what about making a small "box" out of thin sheet aluminum so it's easy to work with, with one end open so it will side over the palm plate. Working on that outside of her hand would be far easier than small work inside, and an attachment system could be fashioned without worrying about the method (i.e. heat, chemical, epoxy, etc) hurting the TPE, and when it was ready the new "box" could be slipped over the existing plate for lots of contact area and reinforcement, glued into place and the wires fixed to whatever method I come up with to do so. In fact, as a thought, small holes could be drilled in the aluminum and the wires pulled through and somehow crimped off, maybe by bending into an L shape or something, so you wouldn't have to rely on glue at all to hold them in place. Think there is any merit in this, or have you already tried it and found flaws in the logic?

Later,
Brian
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by CinnamonLover »

briwri01 wrote:
Hi,

I've loved the sound of a mirror flipping up and a shutter firing since I was a teen! That's why I love DSLRs... still get that feeling!
Anyway...I actually had a weird, more complicated idea that popped into mind after reading your ideas... I don't really care about flexibility in the palm.. heck, my own real palm and the back of my hand don't bend much - those bones are fairly rigid. I don't know how to describe this in words but.... what about making a small "box" out of thin sheet aluminum so it's easy to work with, with one end open so it will side over the palm plate. Working on that outside of her hand would be far easier than small work inside, and an attachment system could be fashioned without worrying about the method (i.e. heat, chemical, epoxy, etc) hurting the TPE, and when it was ready the new "box" could be slipped over the existing plate for lots of contact area and reinforcement, glued into place and the wires fixed to whatever method I come up with to do so. In fact, as a thought, small holes could be drilled in the aluminum and the wires pulled through and somehow crimped off, maybe by bending into an L shape or something, so you wouldn't have to rely on glue at all to hold them in place. Think there is any merit in this, or have you already tried it and found flaws in the logic?

Later,
Brian[/quote]

That is an interesting idea and does sound like it would have stability at the very least. That is if I am visualizing it correctly. You would, as you said, lose some flexibility but honestly like you said it's in an area that doesn't normally flex much anyway. My main concern seems to be that no matter where you "end" the palm plate, you have unsupported copper after that. And though copper is pretty flexible and resilient, it does tear over time and as you and I (and many, many others) have discovered, it seems to part quickly enough. I was being very careful also but have all the same symptoms you've got. Cinnamon had 8 parted fingers (with nails turned about and funny angles and limp hands) within one month. Despite being very careful and having no damage anywhere else.
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Re: WM Fingers/Hand Surgery

Post by briwri01 »

I'll see if I can come up with something in the way of a 3D diagram showing what i am envisioning. As I've thought more about it answering your posts, it's already evolving... The basic "Cap" that would be assembled outside the body and slipped over the old palm plate would have the "Hand" end of the copper (or aluminum) wires already affixed. Then, once the cap and palm have been set in place and ready, the ends left coming from the fingers would be attached... perhaps some sort of crimping system as in electrical connectors you mentioned, and the TPE sealed up.
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