The Doll Forum

by **Hungry Bear** » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:17 pm

I like that ball joints and more pivot points are being explored. Being a machinist, the subject is double interesting to me. Most ball joints are swaged together, meaning the female side is rolled or pressed over the male side and it is pretty much a permanent connection. The female side can be split, and fashioned into a clamp type config. Ball joints can also be lined with special materials like bearing bronze or hightec plastics like delrin, used in many prosthetics. I have actually done work on these. Without access to the allen screws, adjustable ball joints are useless, and expensive.
I do like the suggestion of blow molded or 3d printed chest cavity, for weight saving and realism, but we have to remember that the silicone or tpe mold has to support the frame, suspended, in center or the mold, for even casting of the fleshy bits. I have only seen a little of the inside of one of the factories, and to me, it looks like a challenge to create a perfect mold every time. They just don't have the infrastructure of, say a modern automobile factory. Its a labor intensive, hands on, craft skill. just have to say, I am glad they keep making thing better, and bringing cost down. Bravo!

To any manufacturers out there, I am available for free consult. I have 30+ years in machining and manufacturing, and would love to help make dolls better!

by **ZannyDanger** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:29 pm

Dollstudio wrote: TPE dolls are on the other end of this pricing range. Customers ask for dolls that cost rather $600 than $1200. Now consider that argument what a established manufacturer considers "commercially impossible" for a doll in the $6000-$8000 range. What could be realistically possible for a doll that costs only a fraction of this in retail?

What we need to understand is that TPE manufacturers are working with absurdly low budgets. 2/3 and recently even 3/4 of the retail price is eaten by shipping, handling and import fees. If a skeleton takes an hour to assemble and adjust, the resulting doll would be unsellable expensive.

Sandro

Hey Sandro,

That's actually a very fair point, and something i never even considered myself. It explains some manufacturer's reluctant approach to redesigning aspects that have been shown to have weaknesses. I understand it has to be financially viable.

Surely there must be a middle ground to be found somewhere where everybody gets what they wants... even though i do appreciate the very accessible price point of the entry level models.

by **ZZZZ** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:55 pm

@Sandro - what you're saying about all the different skeletons describes a phase immature companies/industries go through: trying to do too much in-house.

A company that specializes in supplying skeletons to doll manufactures would benefit from economies of scale (such as automation). Once that company emerges, I think you'll see doll manufacturers getting out of the skeleton business very rapidly.

by **Dollstudio** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:23 pm

CrazyCajun wrote:[…] as long as there is a way to effectively deal with any problems that should occur with out having to replace the entire doll or destroy her in the process of attempting a repair, then that would be in reality the best that could be hoped for. And that is what the manufacturers don't seem to understand! Or at least don't seem to want to provide.

I have not much to contradict; if we are talking with manufacturers about these little details, it's like hitting a brick wall. For example, there is a (TDF-approved) silicone doll manufacturer who uses PVC pipes in the skeleton. The pipes easily cut through the soft silicone, e.g. in the elbows, as the ends of the PVC pipes are neither deburred nor encapsulated, not even with gauze. This is a doll in the $4000 price range. Design decisions like this are very hard to understand and basically impossible to explain to customers - why the heck are the pipes poking through the elbows in a factory fresh doll for $4000?

The best skeleton I know is the one used by Doll Sweet. It is one of the rare gems, designed to be maintainable; e.g. nuts are not welded onto the pipes, so parts can be replaced and adjusted. But it is a extremely complex skeleton. Another (TDF-approved) manufacturer commented that it would be commercially impossible to assemble a similar skeleton in Europe or North America. This manufacturer sells dolls in the $6000-$8000 range. Comparable Doll Sweet dolls cost about half of that. Commercially impossible. One needs to let this sink in.

TPE dolls are on the other end of this pricing range. Customers ask for dolls that cost rather $600 than $1200. Now consider that argument what a established manufacturer considers "commercially impossible" for a doll in the $6000-$8000 range. What could be realistically possible for a doll that costs only a fraction of this in retail?

What we need to understand is that TPE manufacturers are working with absurdly low budgets. 2/3 and recently even 3/4 of the retail price is eaten by shipping, handling and import fees. If a skeleton takes an hour to assemble and adjust, the resulting doll would be unsellable expensive.

Sandro

by **CrazyCajun** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:45 am

@bob789; As long as the joint can be reasonably replaced then that is almost as good as being able to tighten it! It would be better to simply be able to re-tighten it, but if it is able to be replaced in the field that is almost as good and better than having to grind off welds inside the doll!

by **CrazyCajun** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:41 am

@ZZZZ; Just thought that you may know as you have one. I would also hope that you never have to cut on her for any reason!

Sandro; I do see some promise; and some issues; with this skeleton. I would not claim it is lightyears ahead of any skeleton on the market. But it does have
promise, but there are some issues with it that could cause some grief as well.
No one can build a skeleton that, in a production environment, can be guaranteed to never have a problem, but as long as there is a way to effectively
deal with any problems that should occur with out having to replace the entire doll or destroy her in the process of attempting a repair, then that would be
in reality the best that could be hoped for. And that is what the manufacturers don't seem to understand! Or at least don't seem to want to provide.

by **bob7892** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:31 am

CrazyCajun wrote:@ZZZZ; Thanks, can the joints on the DollForever be tightened?

@bob7892; That is great news! I was wondering if they could be tightened or replaced! The ability to tighten or replace the joint if needed is what will prove to be the best all around solution I do believe!

Replaced yes , but not sure about tightening , as the socket is pressed around the ball ( no nuts and bolts ), I suppose you would just remove the joint and order a tighter one

by **Dollstudio** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:23 am

CrazyCajun wrote:Question: Is this a DollForever Skeleton?

Nope. Non-TDF-listed manufacturer, so disclosing the brand would result in getting the thread deleted.

For me this skeleton is interesting as it solves a lot of the long-standing issues with TPE dolls. There is not even a M16 thread to connect the head anymore. This skeleton can be already ordered, and it is - imho - lightyears ahead of what the market leader is currently shipping.

Sandro

by **ZZZZ** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:13 am

CrazyCajun wrote:@ZZZZ; Thanks, can the joints on the DollForever be tightened?

Sorry, I haven't done any "exploratory surgery" on my doll. I hope I never have to!

I like your idea for making adjustments through the back though.

by **CrazyCajun** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:50 am

@ZZZZ; Thanks, can the joints on the DollForever be tightened?

@bob7892; That is great news! I was wondering if they could be tightened or replaced! The ability to tighten or replace the joint if needed is what will prove to be the best all around solution I do believe!

by **bob7892** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:41 am

CrazyCajun wrote:This skeleton has some potential, but look closely and you will also see some issues!
(1): The bolt heads are tacked to the frame of the skeleton, and the nuts are tacked to the bolt. This will prevent any tightening of any joint on the skeleton without
Major surgery to cut the weldments off! All nuts should be a nylon locking nuts, or tacked to the frame of the skeleton, this would prevent loosening and allow for user tightening! The bolt heads should not be tacked or welded to anything!

(2): All of the bolt heads should be facing the back or the outside of the doll. Except for the bolt heads on the shoulders that allow for shrugging, these should face the top of the shoulder. This is to allow the easiest and least intrusive method to get to the head for tightening!

(3): The palm plate looks OK, but if it were just a bit thicker, then the wires could be anchored using set screws. This again would allow for them to be changed out in the field by the owner. To weld them in place would be a mistake!

In short; this skeleton looks promising, but there is still things about it that can and should be changed. It is not that anyone can build a skeleton that cannot be broken or that is guaranteed to not ever have a defect. But as long as it is built in a way that allows it to be repaired with as little damage to the doll as possible, this is what would be an ideal skeleton!
NoOne is even close yet!

Question: Is this a DollForever Skeleton?

The 6ye ball joint is easily repairable , just undo the threaded cap ends either side of the joint , and replace with a new one

by **ZZZZ** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:32 am

CrazyCajun wrote:Question: Is this a DollForever Skeleton?

My D4E135 has an M16 thread welded in the neck. The neck connector in the original post looks different.

by **CrazyCajun** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:20 am

This skeleton has some potential, but look closely and you will also see some issues!
(1): The bolt heads are tacked to the frame of the skeleton, and the nuts are tacked to the bolt. This will prevent any tightening of any joint on the skeleton without
Major surgery to cut the weldments off! All nuts should be a nylon locking nuts, or tacked to the frame of the skeleton, this would prevent loosening and allow for user tightening! The bolt heads should not be tacked or welded to anything!

(2): All of the bolt heads should be facing the back or the outside of the doll. Except for the bolt heads on the shoulders that allow for shrugging, these should face the top of the shoulder. This is to allow the easiest and least intrusive method to get to the head for tightening!

(3): The palm plate looks OK, but if it were just a bit thicker, then the wires could be anchored using set screws. This again would allow for them to be changed out in the field by the owner. To weld them in place would be a mistake!

In short; this skeleton looks promising, but there is still things about it that can and should be changed. It is not that anyone can build a skeleton that cannot be broken or that is guaranteed to not ever have a defect. But as long as it is built in a way that allows it to be repaired with as little damage to the doll as possible, this is what would be an ideal skeleton!
NoOne is even close yet!

Question: Is this a DollForever Skeleton?

by **Babel99** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:32 am

It is an improvement, but the joints need to be covered in a plactic ball or something. Biggest issue I have with my yl148 is the TPE beeing eaten from the inside out by the joints.

And to fix the finger poke then simply having a small ball bearing at the tip of the finger would do.

by **fxrs789** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:00 am

: IMG_5132.JPG (1.57 MiB) Viewed 1370 times

For comparison....this is what a cheap POS skeleton looks like. I see some improvements between this and the improved model. I think they still have far to go. I agree that plastic and aluminum should be incorporated.