Joint Tightening for Nony.

[thatdood001]

There is a discussion on joint tightening, loosening, etc., happening in the Inventor's Corner right now, in case you're interested:
http://dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26438

Thanks...I'll head over there now!

[mytime]

Lovable Dolls wrote:

MyTime and Everhard both stated that they prefer not to cut the silicone just to tighten joints if nothing is broken unless the looseness reduces posability enough to be irritating. In Nony's case she was still usable as a love doll but Muzza wanted her tighter for posing.

Yup IMO don't cut if not needed... however opinions may differ.

There are no fully jointed dolls on the market anywhere that don't loosen over time, even from companies that have been in business a decade or more.

Yup!, Bill owns a doll with a Thomas skeleton, but those are have never made it to production. Of topic, and not wanting to boast but only little proud that I thought it out, but I would like to see the idea of the advanced joint I have working but its as it is a joint that consists out of 16 complicated parts so, probably too complicated to make it at reasonable costs. (who wants to pay 100 or more euro for each joint and a doll that needs soon 16 or more of them? Maybe I succeed once in getting a few of such joints made (hand milled), or maybe doll manufactors should join each other and develop such thing further to production in a joint venture, like automotive industry.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen

[sanpedro]

Maybe I succeed once in getting a few of such joints made (hand milled), or maybe doll manufactors should join each other and develop such thing further to production in a joint venture, like automotive industry.

If the industry were any bigger, that would be a viable idea for someone who was mechanically inclined but didn't have the sculptural talent to make bodies - a "skeleton builder" that made skeletons in standardised dimentions and sold them to artists who cast custom dolls around them.
(like 4woods - LD)

My understanding is that in the early early days of the auto industry, there were companies that made platforms - frame and engine/trans - and sold them to carriage builders who built a chassis on them.

Drifting off topic - sorry.

[mahtek]

Excellent tutorial, Muzza!

I've not had much luck with using wrap to get a smooth seam. I guess that is an acquired skill. A seam can be smoothed by applying thinned, tinted silicone and letting it flow out, but the surface will have a definite difference in shine.

That said, I think that you did a fine job on the repair. I certainly would not be ashamed of those repair seams. Well done!

As a point of clarification, most joint loosening occurs due to wear between the bearing surfaces of the joints and not because of bolt loosening. Once I tightened the joints on one of my dolls. I cleaned the joints, applied lubricant to the bearing surfaces and used Locktite on the nuts. The joints remained tight for one month.

I hope that Nony's tightened joints stay posable for much, much longer.

Mahtek & his Ladies

[HawgCallr]

The two times I have tightened the joints on Rita (Miss Autumn BT) they have been entirely optional. Nothing was broken, the looseness (is that even a word?) was just kind of annoying. The first time I tightend her forearms and second time her wrists. The forearms are still okay, but one of her wrists is loose again. I am not so concerned about the operation itself as I am about having to seal it up afterwards. While her scars aren't that noticeable, they do detract from her "fresh out of the mold" look that I would like to have been able to keep.

[mytime]

Sanpedro

My understanding is that in the early early days of the auto industry, there were companies that made platforms - frame and engine/trans - and sold them to carriage builders who built a chassis on them.

Drifting off topic - sorry.

Thing is indeed offtopic, but honestly I'am sometimes bit impressed what the joint could mean for dolls, its what the differential means for cars to make two wheel drive possible, thus that replaced the chain that did drive only one wheel. The joint could care for that the wear of metal is completely gone and the friction stays at a continue level.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen

[RainLover]

Thing is indeed offtopic, but honestly I'am sometimes bit impressed what the joint could mean for dolls, its what the differential means for cars to make two wheel drive possible, thus that replaced the chain that did drive only one wheel. The joint could care for that the wear of metal is completely gone and the friction stays at a continue level.

So are you saying that LD/4woods is already using this joint design you mentioned? Or just something they should be considering? I guess I lost your train of thought.

[sactojoe]

Wow muzza, now you're a pro!

I remember last year when you were worried that you might have to perform an operation at some point. I feel better about my lack of skills knowing that you were able to educate yourself enough to do such a good job.

Great tutorial too!

[mytime]

The tutorial is indeed interesting, but

Muzza wrote

So mix your color with the silpoxy - TIP - Be quick because it sets fast and make the color lighter rather than darker. (I think the darker skinned girls would hardly show a scar even if there was one but lighter skinned girls the darker shows).

What and what are mixed here muzza?
silpoxy and (colored) 2 part silicone from a repair kit?

Further I wonder bit about repairing a scar, I think I should try it with either saran wrap or, a piece of a latex gloove, over the silicone, I doubt bit which one is best, the latex gloove is IMO easyer to get smooth over the silicone while the saran wrap shows eventually air inclusions better.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen

[LovableDolls]

The tutorial is indeed interesting, but

Muzza wrote

So mix your color with the silpoxy - TIP - Be quick because it sets fast and make the color lighter rather than darker. (I think the darker skinned girls would hardly show a scar even if there was one but lighter skinned girls the darker shows).

What and what are mixed here muzza?
silpoxy and (colored) 2 part silicone from a repair kit?

Further I wonder bit about repairing a scar, I think I should try it with either saran wrap or, a piece of a latex gloove, over the silicone, I doubt bit which one is best, the latex gloove is IMO easyer to get smooth over the silicone while the saran wrap shows eventually air inclusions better.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen

The mix is powder tint and silpoxy. With platinum silicone you cannot use latex. If the silicone comes into contact with latex at all it will never cure. If Saran Wrap stretches too much you can use thicker plastic like the material for covering surfaces that painters use.

[muzza]

Follow Up Notes and Comments about Joint Tightening.

(Views expressed are my personal thoughts and not meant to be authoritative or an indication of what other members thoughts and experiences are).

It is correct that the joint tightening was an entirely optional maintenance exercise which I decided to undertake. Nothing was broken.

For the way I use Yvonne in both play and posing - whether sex, around the house or for photos - her joints were just too loose and floppy.

I totally disagree with others who say loose joints are better for play.
Floppy joints are difficult to control and position when simulating cuddles, caressing and hugging from ones doll and getting out of the way and clear when moving or, indeed, 'banging' away.

The joint tightening exercise only had limited success.
For a couple of reasons.
1. I did not tighten them enough. Seemed OK on the bed but I did not heed my own advice about 'thinking about levers'. Once back together again, although the joints hold position, they are 'soft' to move. I would prefer more resistance and should have used more force to tighten.
2. Rotation (twisting around the axis of the limb/joint), which I did not tighten as that job is a biggie, are still loose so the limbs still flop around in rotation.

Do I regret doing it - No.
I have learned a great deal more about Nony and how she works.
Do I love my Nony any less - No.
We have become more intimate as a result of the experience.
Have I destroyed her 'looks' - No, I don't believe so. She is still gorgeous and the scars are minimal - judge for yourselves - and anyway I don't mind them.



My only regret is that, even though I tried, I will not be able to pose and position her as I once was able to.

None of this entire thread should discourage anyone from buying a high end doll. All dolls, if used in their broadest capability as mine most definitely are, will have wear and tear.
As the saying goes 'Ships are safe in Harbour, but that is not what Ships are made for'.

My advice to buyers:
Ask that your doll be tight in all joints, but especially in Rotation.
My advice to Manufacturers:
Ensure joints are tight, especially in Rotation (twisting in the tube/around axis of limb).
My advice to Owners:
Do the joint maintenance/tightening only if you really need and want to.
(Although don't be afraid to do it if it is necessary).

I have learned to appreciate Natasha's tight joints - previously criticised - as they are now, as Goldilocks said, after 14 months, "just right".

Cheers
Muzza

[mytime]

Muzza/Bronwen,

Yup stupid idea from me to think about the latex gloove, it will stop the platinum based silicone from curing...
Further thanks for the idea of adding make up powder to silpoxy.
I think the silpoxy is the best for glueing cuts or tears. =>want to use it to patch up Helen, after I saw what Doodman did with his doll.
Muzza, I'am sorry to hear that the rethightening turned out not to be as succesful as you wanted. Hopefully we don't anoy you Muzza and Lovable Dolls though the idea is read on below maybe we (RainLover and me) are on to a more simple solution than a special joint on loose joints which could work today instead of in the future, however we are not yet 100% sure about it (experimenting will tell but that goes at the cost of dolls pity enough...).

RainLover,

OT about that more advanced joint:
RainLover wrote:

Yuo are you saying that LD/4woods is already using this joint design you mentioned? Or just something they should be considering? I guess I lost your train of thought. Confused

I have to admit that I once told Bronwen about the design, but! I'am almost 100% sure they don't use it in their current dolls which are using skeletons based on the design of the 4woods skeleton. The thing is for me too complicated to manufacture and maybe for Bronwen and Matt too, and needs a new skeleton design too else it will not work, because the joint is different than a normal joint (bit bigger). However maybe once I get it done, dream...

Maybe On Topic, because this is easyer to achieve than the special joint:
RainLover, The Nord-Lock you came up with,http://www.nord-lock.com/ I remember indeed that I found it too back in 2005, it may be worth trying this with a doll, this doll maybe a Lovable doll or a Realdoll any way it are only 2 special washers that prohibit the nut from running loose rigorously, this can be applied on every doll but at own risk of coarse, although I think it may help and avoid loose joints for a longer time, below a diagram that shows that the bolt/nut secured with it keeps their pre-load better than other methods.


Muzza wrote

I have learned to appreciate Natasha's tight joints - previously criticised - as they are now, as Goldilocks said, after 14 months, "just right".

This is same with Carmen, she's stiff, but I don't move her a lot too, may help. The Realdoll skeleton uses the multiple thin metal plates in the joint, however these did tear sometimes in past causing a joint failure, there is quite some surface on that thin metal plates to generate the friction and thus stiff joints. I don't know exactly how the 4woods skeleton today is in this and I have not seen/posed a LD IRL, but surely believe they are wonderfull dolls (look at a Realdoll ear, my last sculpture has better ears e.g.). Otoh I have now and then really to be little carefull to move her without damaging her silicone, so stiff are the joints.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen

[RainLover]

read on below maybe we (RainLover and me) are on to a more simple solution than a special joint on loose joints which could work today instead of in the future

this is easyer to achieve than the special joint:
RainLover, The Nord-Lock you came up with,http://www.nord-lock.com/ I remember indeed that I found it too back in 2005, it may be worth trying this with a doll, this doll maybe a Lovable doll or a Realdoll any way it are only 2 special washers that prohibit the nut from running loose rigorously, this can be applied on every doll but at own risk of coarse, although I think it may help and avoid loose joints for a longer time, below a diagram that shows that the bolt/nut secured with it keeps their pre-load better than other methods.

Totally. See the bump up in the clamp load on the graph for the Nord-Lock? That's because the cam face to cam face design actually makes the connection stronger prior to failure, which is going to take a lot more than ordinary posing to do, according to my thinking on the matter.

Now if you're planning to pose your doll on an operating jackhammer, then you'd have the requisite vibration level, but if you pose your doll on an operating jackhammer, I think your doll's joints coming loose will be the least of your worries.

Looking at the vibration used in the test on the video, that's pretty extreme. I think it would be pretty much impossible for a doll joint to ever suffer from a looseness episode, given these parameters.

[stacy718]

A very helpful thread Muzza! Thank you very much. All of my older dolls are loose now and I have to decide whether I should do the "surgery" or not.


again thank you for being so very helpful,
Stacy

[EddieFr]

...I wonder if any of the manufacturers have given any thought to creating what would otherwise be called a coring tool? A small, 8-10mm hole-saw like cutter with a razored edge in place of saw teeth? In this manner, a cylindrical "plug" could be extracted at the site, having been pre-indexed with a pencil mark for proper replacement, and ensure a tight, uniform looking repair. Perhaps overkill for what would normally be just an incision, but possibly this method of repair may not need any adhesive at all. The plug would self-seal, not be prone to opening back up, like a repaired seam, and would always be available and removeable for future site work. Maybe even cutting the hole with an 8mm cutter and replacing the cut core with factory-provided 10mm plugs (from the same mold mix batch) to insure an extra-tight fit. I suppose the key is creating a tool with an aligning fixture to insure a straight and clean cut everytime. Something that would resemble an old tire innertube hot patching clamp. The flat base of the coring jig would lie under the limb, while the upper cast cylinder aligns and prevents the cutter from wandering. Alternately, the bolt site could be pre-marked or scored by the manufacturer at the time of casting, showing a VERY faint impression of where the limb pivot points lie. Just a thought........

EdF.