Joint Tightening for Nony.

Mods, Repairs & Maintenance related specifically to 4Woods
User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Re: "Coring tool" for nut tightening?.............

Post by RainLover »

EddieFr wrote:...I wonder if any of the manufacturers have given any thought to creating what would otherwise be called a coring tool?
That's an interesting thought for existing loose dolls. I'd still like to see the manufacturers give Nord-Lock a try and maybe we can lick this loose-joint problem forever. :)
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

User avatar
mytime
Doll Oracle
Doll Oracle
Posts: 8956
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:00 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by mytime »

RainLover wrote
That's an interesting thought for existing loose dolls. I'd still like to see the manufacturers give Nord-Lock a try and maybe we can lick this loose-joint problem forever.
It does not need to be a manufacturer who tests this, Even I or Stacy (who wrote about some of her dolls have loose joints) can apply this special washers on a doll IMO if we want. I don't believe its rocket science to test this special nut locking washers. If it works then it should be great!

Mytime & Helen & Carmen
Image
One dream, one mission...

User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Post by RainLover »

mytime wrote:RainLover wrote
That's an interesting thought for existing loose dolls. I'd still like to see the manufacturers give Nord-Lock a try and maybe we can lick this loose-joint problem forever.
It does not need to be a manufacturer who tests this, Even I or Stacy (who wrote about some of her dolls have loose joints) can apply this special washers on a doll IMO if we want. I don't believe its rocket science to test this special nut locking washers. If it works then it should be great!
Sure, I understand that, but it's not necessary for you or Stacy to try and make the case yourselves with your own dolls (although it would obviously help to retrofit joints as you open them).

The research has already been done on this. Now it's time for the manufacturers to take action. These are high end dolls. "High end" to me means "better than the rest" and not merely "more expensive". They need to do this.They're the ones who stand to profit from adding Nord-Lock to their product. Everyone who builds an articulated skeleton inside their doll should have done this years ago.
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

LovableDolls
Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Posts: 563
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:00 am
Location: California

Post by LovableDolls »

We are watching and we do pay attention as anyone who has followed our growth in the past year knows. We have implemented the nord-locks already but that doesn't guarantee that joints wont loosen over time and with use. Just like your car may last a long time, there will need to be maintenance as things get jostled and used over the years, so is the case with dolls. We make the highest quality possible and implement whatever engineering directives we can to improve the product line, but we'll never say that the joints absolutely will not loosen over time - that would be reckless and unreasonable.

User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Post by RainLover »

LovableDolls wrote:We are watching and we do pay attention as anyone who has followed our growth in the past year knows. We have implemented the nord-locks already but that doesn't guarantee that joints wont loosen over time and with use. Just like your car may last a long time, there will need to be maintenance as things get jostled and used over the years, so is the case with dolls. We make the highest quality possible and implement whatever engineering directives we can to improve the product line, but we'll never say that the joints absolutely will not loosen over time - that would be reckless and unreasonable.
"Reckless and unreasonable"? Have you had problems with Nord-Lock-enabled joints coming loose? From the video and their website (and from what I read at other engineering websites before bringing all this to TDF), it looked like the "ultimate" solution to me. :?
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

User avatar
mytime
Doll Oracle
Doll Oracle
Posts: 8956
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:00 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by mytime »

RainLover wrote:
"Reckless and unreasonable"? Have you had problems with Nord-Lock-enabled joints coming loose? From the video and their website (and from what I read at other engineering websites before bringing all this to TDF), it looked like the "ultimate" solution to me. Confused
RainLover, keep in mind that Bronwen and Matt have tried them.
They are too not designed with "moving joints" in mind, keep that in mind too.
They may simply happen not give much improvement on moving joints.
This may be due to that there is a wear of steel in the current moving joints. So the Nord-Lock system may not be the solution for lengthening the duration of stiffness on a skeleton.
I have locked joints with lock tite and that stuff really works good, and locks the nut but this joints become loose too.
If we want to be 100% sure then I need to try it on Helen e.g. and lock some of her joints with Nord Lock but I honestly believe Bronwen and Matt K on this.

My respect to Lovable Dolls opinion but IMO joints with almost eternal lasting friction, and simply with a wrench adjustable is possible with the design I thought out but difficult and needs total skeleton redesign due to that the joints will be bit bigger. And that joints are very difficult to make due to that they are complex and bit revolutionairy due to that they solve the two items moveabelity and friction in a whole different way as today, they solve the two items in two separete units (one for friction and one for movement) while the current joints try to solve it in one unit which I think is not possible. So thats very difficult to achieve and thus very expensive unless its shown that the joint I thought out does not work I won't believe in it any more. The technique applied in it, is also in parts of cars, and that part does already last 150,000 miles/15 years in mine, and still works perfectly, so it will last in a doll I think ;). As far I know this is proved already a little by the doll Realdoll once build for Bill this doll has a Thomas skeleton and I have heard rumours that this skeleton uses the same principle as in the joint I thought out.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen
Image
One dream, one mission...

User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Post by RainLover »

mytime wrote:RainLover wrote:
"Reckless and unreasonable"? Have you had problems with Nord-Lock-enabled joints coming loose? From the video and their website (and from what I read at other engineering websites before bringing all this to TDF), it looked like the "ultimate" solution to me. :?
RainLover, keep in mind that Bronwen and Matt have tried them.
Not just "tried". What they said indicates to me that Nord-Locks are being used in the current production line.
mytime wrote:They are too not designed with "moving joints" in mind, keep that in mind too. They may simply happen not give much improvement on moving joints. So the Nord-Lock system may not be the solution for lengthening the duration of stiffness on a skeleton.
That's not true; people use Nord-Locks on moving parts all the time. Look at these pages for examples (for faster viewing, set your browser's "find" command to look for the word nord):

http://flashoffroad.com/Maintenance/Brakes/Brakes2.html
http://www.hallind.com/Inlet%20Adapter.htm
http://equipment.forconstructionpros.co ... _Airrow_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_wire
http://www.engineerlive.com/Design-Engi ... sts/22075/

Tension, not friction, is the answer. My asking of Matt/Bronwen if they'd had problems with Nord-Locked joints loosening was academic, and not a belief that loosening is possible. Assuming they have been properly installed, in pairs, cam face to cam face, the answer will be that they have not had any joints loosen with the Nord-Locks.

According to the research, and their use in industry, Nord-Lock is the answer when "failure is not an option".
mytime wrote:This may be due to that there is a wear of steel in the current moving joints.
It's a doll, not a locomotive. There shouldn't be any wearing down of the steel in the skeleton unless the metal is too thin or its an aluminum alloy or pot metal they're using, and that seems highly unlikely.
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

User avatar
muzza
Doll Mentor
Doll Mentor
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by muzza »

In my first post I said:
Rotation can be tightened but involves a bigger cut and removing foam to tighten the pvc around the 'bone'. As it is not necessarily so important I decided to only tighten her bending actions.
.
In my follow up thread I said:
Rotation (twisting around the axis of the limb/joint), which I did not tighten as that job is a biggie, are still loose so the limbs still flop around in rotation.
I do not know if the nuts and bolts being discussed will fix the problem of loosening of bending joints but if the 'Rotation' loosens - and Nony's were loose from the beginning - the whole exercise becomes rather pointless or at least not as effective.
As I discovered to my cost.

And you are right, Dolls are not locomotives or constantly moving mechanical parts so wear should not be so prominent.

I gave my advices in my second post. No need to repeat.

muzza
Ah Love Could thou and I with fate conspire to grasp this sorry scheme of things entire Would not we shatter it to bits and then remould it nearer to the Heart's desire.

User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Post by RainLover »

muzza wrote:I do not know if the nuts and bolts being discussed will fix the problem of loosening of bending joints but if the 'Rotation' loosens - and Nony's were loose from the beginning - the whole exercise becomes rather pointless or at least not as effective. As I discovered to my cost.
Yes, a pair of Nord-Locks set cam face to cam face under the nut will be effective regardless of what the bolt is doing. What makes the Nord-Lock different from all other bolt securing methods is that it relies on tension instead of friction to hold the fastener in place. Merely ratcheting down a nut on a bolt, regardless of nylon, spring, or other type of modifier used, relies on friction to hold fast. Movement of the joint is going to release the friction due to leverage, and then the joint goes loose or floppy.

Tension, on the other hand, resists the action of leverage, by requiring a greater angle of rotation than the angle of the helix. The joint maintains whatever amount of stiffness was ratcheted into the bolt during manufacture.

The literature says that a lubricated, ratcheted bolt will hold fast under any conditions. For a more flexible joint, i would assume that a drop of Loctite into the nut threads in combination with the Nord-Locks would make an ideal solution. But as you said, the rotating joint really needs to be ratcheted down pretty good, so just using the Nord-Locks the standard way should be all the manufacturer needs to do. Pairs of Nord-Locks in small quantities cost about USD 25 cents per pair. So if the doll had 24 joints requiring a set, it would add about USD $6 to the wholesale cost of the doll.

Muzza: LD said that they are using Nord-Locks now, so considering the trouble you had, I would assume they were implemented after your doll was made. Matt/Bronwen: please correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption about your use of Nord-Locks.
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

User avatar
muzza
Doll Mentor
Doll Mentor
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by muzza »

Not all joints have a nut and bolt.
Some bolts screw into a housing.
I am currently struggling with such a situation (Nony's shoulder).
It is proving a disaster.
Loctite did not hold the bolt from unscrewing because of the force of the friction of the turning nylon washers.
I had to open her shoulder up again - what a f@#*^#g mess that is - and drill and tap a hole - another f@#*^#g mess - in the housing to try to fit a screw to hold the bolt - and yet another f _ _ _ g mess.
Again the screw was unable to hold the bolt from unscrewing with the friction of the washers turning bolt.

Situation: Pending. Still thinking how to stop bolt unscrewing but have it tight enough so her arm is not just a floppy appendage hanging from her shoulder.
Outcome: She is going to have a very significant shoulder scar.
Reason: All because one very tiny inaccessible set screw (grub screw) did not hold the bolt from unscrewing in the first place.

Some photos in due course.

muz
Ah Love Could thou and I with fate conspire to grasp this sorry scheme of things entire Would not we shatter it to bits and then remould it nearer to the Heart's desire.

User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Post by RainLover »

Maybe you should try inserting a pair of Nord-Locks in place of the nylon washers.

A bunch of places sell them online:
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&so ... a=N&tab=wf
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

User avatar
mytime
Doll Oracle
Doll Oracle
Posts: 8956
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:00 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by mytime »

Muzza,

I'am honestly bit sorry to hear you've such problems with Nony's skeleton. I wonder that even lock tite can not help you. Maybe the Nord Locks can hold the bolt in the shoulder as RainLover suggests, these are washers and can be put on the bolt (no nut is needed), but I'am not sure if that works but it can be tried.

RainLover wrote
It's a doll, not a locomotive. There shouldn't be any wearing down of the steel in the skeleton unless the metal is too thin or its an aluminum alloy or pot metal they're using, and that seems highly unlikely.
RainLover we are talking along each other and it may happen that that keeps go on eternally.
There is a lot difference between a doll and a locomotive. James Watt invented ball bearings if I'am right and they are applied in a locomotive, thus a locomotive does not wear.
Todays doll joints do not use any (ball) bearings most times they are often slices of steel that are mounted with a bolt, the bolt functionates as rotating point or hinge point if that makes it more clear, and also keeps pressure on the joint.
The idea is that the friction of the slices steel on each other make the doll poseable.
I may be wrong but I think joints can become loose due to that the steel is pressed on each other and will slowly erode I think, and thus become little thinner. Due to that the tension of the bolt/nut will become less and the joint will become loose.
The Nord lock is in all your applications not the turning point of rotation, the parts are moving and vibrating parts but that is something different than a bolt and a nut that connects two parts that can turn around that bolt and nut, I mean in the doll the bolt and nut is the "hinge point" in a brake drum it is not I think.
This is a different application, than fixing only 2 parts, Nord Locks may not work in it, we can only learn that if we test that.

Same holds for the joint I thought out, for both the following holds create it, put one end in a vise, and get the other end in my hand and move it 10,000 times, if it passed such test then I'am satisfied and know it will work and keep friction for a doll.
I must see if it works, it should be possible cause my joint idea is based on the idea of a part in my car that lasted 150,000 miles without any maintenance and still lasts.
I hope this discussion about the "hinge point" a bolt and nut in a skeleton can be makes clear what I meant.

Mytime & Helen & Carmen
Image
One dream, one mission...

User avatar
muzza
Doll Mentor
Doll Mentor
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by muzza »

You can discuss this till the cows come home.
It is easy to make a joint that is reliably fixed.
It is easy to make a joint that is reliably flexible and loose.
It is not easy to make a joint that is both.
You will have to look at the 'Shoulder Repair' thread.
http://www.dollforum.com/modules.php?na ... 781#293781
I do not see how Nord Locks will help in the case of a 'blind' bolt screwed into a housing shaft.
The pressure of the washers needed grip and hold the U piece also acts on the bolt head when turned. Hence the need for a set (grub) screw in the housing to hold the bolt.

I am sure the manufacturers have looked and are looking at ways to improve the whole skeleton/joint aspect.

muz
Ah Love Could thou and I with fate conspire to grasp this sorry scheme of things entire Would not we shatter it to bits and then remould it nearer to the Heart's desire.

User avatar
RainLover
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Chove Chuva
Contact:

Post by RainLover »

Muzza and Mytime: you're right. I'm done talking about this. Use Nord-Locks. Don't use Nord-Locks. Whatever.

Someone had said some time back (I forget who or when) that members of TDF don't do enough to help the manufacturers make a better product. Something to that effect. I tried to search for the thread so I could quote it correctly but I couldn't find it. The point is, that's all I was trying to do is be helpful for their sake, and for myself and other members.

Doll owners should not be stuck trying to do what you did with all that silicone surgery.
"Pour yourself a drink, put on some lipstick, and pull yourself together." -- Liz Taylor
"Home, where my love lies waiting silently for me." -- hipsters Simon & Garfunkel, singing about doll ownership before it was cool.

User avatar
mytime
Doll Oracle
Doll Oracle
Posts: 8956
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:00 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by mytime »

Muzza,

I readed your tutorial.
I think indeed with this type of joint the nord locks will not work.
I see too, with respect to Bronwen and Matt, that building a skeleton should never be underestimated, its a difficult task.
I have a design for the minidoll shoulder and hip joints already.
This relies on centuries old technology used in the drive shaft that runs from the steam engine to the propellor of a steam ship, which should be relyable too.
It also allows to increase the friction by using some cotton and grease along the "shaft", in the steam ship that is done to avoid water comming in the ship.
I did not know that LD uses round tubing in the shoulder, due to that they do, this design may be useable for them.
I will post it, I think it may help both you and LD, though, I have not made one yet (I prefer to test if they can handle at least thousand, better tenthousand movements, we need to get somewhere on this shoulder joint).

Mytime & Helen & Carmen
Image
One dream, one mission...

Post Reply

INFORMATIONS