The slow death of silicone dolls

[Dollstudio]

Hi,

it urges me for a long time to make this post, and I think now is the time…

Silicone is dying, everyone in this business knows this. Not the material itself, that is sturdy. It's the silicone manufacturers which deliberately commit suicide (IMHO).

The recent developement everybody who observes the ongoing things has noticed is in a nutshell: Silicone dolls are relatively expensive, turnover decreases massively, silicone manufacturers have less profit to create new dolls or to work on enhancements; demand decreases further because there are less head and body style options for silicone dolls, resulting in breaking down of 2nd hand market for silicone dolls, decreasing the perceived value even further. It's a spiral which drives itself into rock bottom.

Though, this development is not only caused by TPE competition. To a large degree it is self-made by the silicone manufacturer's policies and the chosen way to do their business.

Some examples:

• Back in October 2016 - that was almost two years ago -, Sanhui was a promising manufacturer. In an unboxing review I gave them a big thumbs up for "skillfully mastering to work with silicone", and "demonstrating an impressive level of detail Sanhui is paying attention to". And a few years before that, even before George from X/S brought Sanhui onto TDF, I advocated their dolls as an alternative to TPE. Instead of being thankful for years of support, Sanhui decided to discontinue to cooperate with resellers. Sanhui tried to impose completely inacceptable terms of trade, including the refusal to comply with international trade law. So I had to blacklist Sanhui. It was an unavoidable decision, but it was not caused by bad dolls or bad manufacturing quality. Just because of crazy management decisions.

• With JM Doll it's similar. They also had a portfolio with silicone alternatives to TPE. Technically, they had good and bad things, but overall their dolls were quite OK. Most of the common issues with current TPE dolls were simply inexistant with a JM. At some point JM Doll management decided to discontinue business with all resellers. They decided to focus on direct sales. So they lost support from resellers. I don't think it made their business grow, but who knows; they never reverted this decision. So another silicone manufacturer deliberately vanished into nirvana.

As it is characteristic for Chinese manufacturers, both brands remain available through wholesale channels, no matter what the factory management decides. Some vendors still carry them. I think this is unresponsible since these dolls are not designated for the international market. The wholesale vendors purchase from the domestic Chinese market, and what they get is a different quality. It can be B-grade or worse dolls, with features which do not match the manufacturer's advertising on their international websites. And last but not least, Chinese wholesale traders are unreliable. You get a D cup instead a B cup doll plus a "sorry" for free. But you most probably won't get a decent doll through Chinese wholesale. For me as a vendor that leaves two options - selling crap or dropping the brand completely. I decided for the latter. So two theoretically decent silicone manfacturers are gone totally unnecessary, just because of odd management decisions.

• Over here in Europe it's not too different. In France we have a long-standing silicone manufacturer called Dreamdoll Creations or DDC in short. They are even TDF-accredited, but you might not heard about DDC because nobody promotes them. They make decent silicone dolls - and they still make them like a decade ago. These dolls are sturdy, but they still are as dolls were a decade ago. For reasons I can only guess, these dolls are not developed further. If you compare them visually or haptically with a current TPE doll, they loose. Even their skeleton is like a decade ago. Sturdy, but less posable than a cheap TPE doll. Though, the dolls are not bad, they just are not what the market demands anymore. The manufacturer lacks innovation. It's a slow death.

There are other silicone manufacturers which are not TDF-accredited, so I am not allowed to mention them in further detail, but the pattern is more or less the same. Odd business decisions result that they do not even try to get onto TDF. From TDF management I know that they would be accepted with pleasure. But they decide to not even ask. That's another kind of deliberate suicide. It's sheer hybris to believe that one can prosper in the long run without being listed on the most important forum for dolls worldwide. Not if you have a niche product like silicone dolls.

And there are other examples.

• Doll Sweet is different from the other Chinese silicone manufacturers. They still cooperate with vendors. They innovate continuously. They have one of the best skeletons among all doll manufacturers, including the high-end segment. They know how to deal with silicone virtuously. And they provide after-sales service. They have it all. But is all good? No, as Doll Sweet just decided to discontinue crucial entry-level product lines without any need. So maybe Doll Sweet wants to focus on the more expensive high-end segment with life-sized dolls? Not really. I ordered an DS-167 Evo with all the latest bells and whistles for a review. Not a freebie, a fully payed doll. After two months, the doll wasn't even shipped yet. Within almost a month, Doll Sweet did not manage to get the completed doll shipped. That does not exactly help to promote a product if there is neither proper promotion material nor you can get hands on a fully payed sample.

Silicone dolls have significant advantages over TPE dolls. Many of the most common issues in current TPE dolls simply do not exist in silicone dolls. But silicone dolls are not perfect and more pricey, so the hurdle is much higher to purchase them. Since on promotion photos all current TPE dolls look (almost) as good as a high-end silicone doll, it requires some knowledge to appreciate the not so obvious advantages.

From a customer's point of view I'd think twice before shelling out $5,000 for a supposedly superior silicone doll without having seen one. That's why entry-level silicone dolls are so important. Same material and same manufacturing quality like their taller sisters, just with the fraction of the price tag. Dolls to try out and make first experiences. If there are no affordable entry-level silicone dolls, new customers will simply die out as they won't get the chance to experience the advantages of silicone over TPE. Without affordable entry level silicone dolls, knowledge about silicone advantages will become limited to elitist circles.

All this is not solely caused by price competition with the cheaper TPE dolls as silicone manufacturers complain. Price is one (important) factor, but not the only one. The demand is there. Just there are no products anymore. Thanks to odd management decisions.

It's a strange world.

Sandro

[rubherkitty]

I will agree that TPE dolls have become the bulk sales of the market, but there are many people who are willing to pay the $ for a top quality silicone doll. TPE dolls will always be around, but silicone will be used on dolls as they become more advanced & robotic. I haven't heard of Abyss or PIB shutting down.

I'd buy a used TPE doll if it was cheap enough and could be sanitized. Otherwise, I am only interested in silicone. I honestly don't even want to buy a Chinese made doll as the years of poor quality and lack of customer service has soured me to that.

[Forb]

I found it a bit surprising that Sanhui just launched a TPE division.

I really hope you're wrong though. I, personally, will never buy a TPE doll, and I will be buying around one silicone doll per year.

[gonestill77]

I hope your wrong too. I have a Sanhui silicone lady and absolutely love her. Have had her over 2 years and she has held up pretty well. And she was my first doll. I also had a DS lady for about a year. Got her used and didn't like her as much as my other lady, so I sold her.

I have seen and handled TPE dolls in person and I don't like em much. They are too soft and the material irritates my skin. So I would never bang one for sure. Don't want a rash on my pecker.

I hope silicone companies get their shit together and stick around because in my opinion, TPE is a substandard product compared to silicone.

I do wish silicone companies had more to choose from body style wise. A lot of TPE dolls look great for sure, but I would never risk buying one because of my sensitive skin. That and I know they usually fall apart and show wear and tear faster than silicone even if you take care of them.

My next doll will be silicone, most likely a JM.

Thanks for the heads up and the information Sandro.....

[Tsall]

Regarding Dreamdoll Creations / DDC:

... but they still are as dolls were a decade ago.

Are you sure? They have a new skeleton and can stand: Newbie standing question

[Begog]

I'm pretty sure Real Doll has a bright future. Ditto 4Woods, MechadollUSA, DS, and probably PIB, since they've now adopted TPE skeletons, and are even making less expensive TPE versions of their dolls. Those versions could eventually replace the silicone variety. Any doll company delving into robotics has a shot at sticking around. Only the BEST materials will be used on expensive robots, which could wind up being silicone, but that remains to be seen. Whoever wins that battle wins the long game.
But for now, here's how I see it: Sandro is probably right, but things can change. Silicone could get cheaper. In my view, that is what HAS to happen for most silicone companies to compete with ever-improving TPE dolls. And it could happen. However, what is much more likely is that the TPE smell will continue to grow fainter until it rivals silicone, and it's quality seems to be improving at a faster rate. I'll be the first to admit I'm a fan of TPE. For a silicone doll to be THAT soft, would mean sacrificing durability, while the TPE doll is still quite durable. However, that too could change. Tariffs could alter the playing field. Breakthroughs in silicone/TPE technology could tip the scales, but right now, it does look like TPE is taking over. Of course a completely new material could be developed tomorrow that replaces both. Who knows what the future will bring?

[Unknown03]

This saddens me. I bought my first solid doll a year ago, a jm130 silicone doll and I love her. I have no experience with tpe so I can't compare but I do love the silicone feel, smell, and relatively easy maintenance. When I need a new doll I planned to stay with silicone, but I can't afford a high end $5000K doll.

[rubherkitty]

This saddens me. I bought my first solid doll a year ago, a jm130 silicone doll and I love her. I have no experience with tpe so I can't compare but I do love the silicone feel, smell, and relatively easy maintenance. When I need a new doll I planned to stay with silicone, but I can't afford a high end $5000K doll.

There may be more silicone doll makers in the future as dolls become more popular and accepted. "Retail" price for 2 gallons of silicone is $200.00. Most of a silicone doll is skeleton and foam. I think there is only about 600.00 in material for a full size silicone doll. The rest is labor, overhead and profit. Abyss did not become a million $ operation by just being one guy in his garage making dolls for $20.00 an hour. Now they have a big operation that requires much more overhead cost which is why the dolls cost so much. They may have started out by one guy in his garage, but not now.

And as far as the home doll builder. Unless they're retired w/a guaranteed income, they will need to sell dolls.
If I get into doll making, I need to sell or the bills don't get paid. That means make affordable dolls. A small company is the same or they are forced out of business.

[Forb]

Great points rubberkitty.

I'd also like to point out: Sanhui dolls have been completely upgraded from head to toe, inside out, in the past year. It appears to me they're doing great... That might only have to do with an explosion in love doll demand, so this game might get much harder for them to compete in soon.

Sandro is 100% right about the business model blunders though. I'm sure that is hurting business by a large margin.

[Dollpimp2018]

The only thing keeping me away from silicon is the price. You are right, these companies need new business models to be more competitive, cheaper, faster production... to reach more buyers

[trauma]

Some great points made in this thread, I’ve had a RD and TPE stuff.

Definitely like the repairability of silicone, my TPE is not doing well in comparison, haha.

TPE prices are nice and any U.S. manufacturer has their work cut out for them.

If I had infinite funds I would opt for a RD with gel implants, but that price point isn't in the cards for me any longer.

[Wmdollfan]

Really the innovation we are all waiting for is a next-gen material that increases durability and reduces price... whoever patents that will be raking it in~

[Bauta]

I usually prefer silicone before TPE, and I'm willing to pay a little more for silicone, but not at exorbitant prices, so I hope the silicone market does not go up in price by doing strange steps. If they do that, it will inevitably lead to the majority of potential customers switching to TPE, most people are not rich, a manufacturer must have a an adequate price to obtain a profit margin above the production costs (although something more expensive, since that quality is paid) but it has to be affordable for the average consumer (the basic business economy principle, the average consumer "the majority" wins). While the price remains reasonable, at least for the customer all good in that aspect of the purchase. And in fact if the silicone manufacturers want to compete with the TPE they should lower the price a bit more, but at least I'll settle if they keep the current price.

[Bazinga]

Ok, I'm going to be 100% honest, I'm all the way with Sandro on this one. I'd also like to add my opinion by saying that I think that the "death" of most of the silicone companies were brought on themselves. Now before an uproar starts let me explain. I've been a member of this lovely community for years and I've seen nothing but questionable business decisions come from alot of the silicone doll companies. As a consumer I've experienced prices being raised even AFTER the market was flooded with cheaper TPE alternatives(that in itself baffles my logic), also limited options, yes I understand silicone cost more to produce but does every body and face have to be so one note. Also I what baffles me even more is when these silicone company ask US for feedback to make people choice them over the competition it false on deaf ears. That is just a few factors for me that makes it hard for me to over look them.

Again, I repeat this is not ALL silicone company I'm mentioning, just a few. Truly the doll I've loved for years(but could never afford) is silicone and seriously I'd love to get her but with a RL girlfriend of 11 years that lives with me I could never justify spending $7000 on a silicone girlfriend when a TPE girlfriend is only $1500-$2000 for us. Hey, more power to those who are able or who do it but I could never financially justify it. So to sum up, increasing prices, the "cookie cutter effect", and the unwillingness to innovate or listen to customer feedback much or at all seem to have contributed to the "death blows" but IMHO it was a fate caused by their own hands. Also please keep in mind I like silicone and TPE dolls so I could just imagine harsher words from a person who dislikes silcone dolls, again my opinion though.

[rubherkitty]

I don't know if anyone is disagreeing w/ Sandro other than the title: Death of Silicone Dolls.
Maybe the death of some silicone doll makers, but that happens in many industries. If people want silicone dolls, they will be made. And as mentioned, maybe something will replace TPE & Silicone.