Lorna's left shoulder.

Poet · Post by **Poet** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:31 pm

OK after an initial check on Lorna after getting home from vacation I notice her left shoulder is loose. From my memory I recall doing nothing to cause this. The motion of abduction (raising her shoulder laterally out to the side) is loose as a wet noodle, other motions R maintained, that is, forwards & to the rear. I have no idea how this occured.

I will have to get into that left shoulder joint. Anyone have knowledge about the shoulder articulation / joint? I need some input here. Visually she is symetrical, everything looks OK the left arm is not hanging or lower than the right but it is definately loose in the motions described & I have little doubt something has worked loose, if anything, it is probably a screw or nut & bolt scenerio.

If I feel & palpate her left shoulder area there is a definate clinky sound like a bolt or something is loose in there.

Any advice appreciated. Poet

midnight · Post by **midnight** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:59 pm

Well...I always say; better a lose joint, than a locked one, or a separated one

My advice (and it's free,) is to leave it alone...unless it really bothers you.

Poet · Post by **Poet** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:05 am

Thanks Mid but as I said it really bothers me. I doubt I can leave this alone for longer than necessary. When I am armed with sufficient data & if I am not then never the less, I will get in there. Poet

Mr_Gasket · Post by **Mr_Gasket** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:51 am

I am under the impression that Lorna's and Vicki's era RD shoulder joints are built exactly like their hips... In which case, I am intimately familiar with those bastards...

Check Vicki's hip repair photos HERE and also look at Rentell's set of Betty's Knee and hip repair photos HERE.

You might also find something useful on the RD Doctor's site.. If you have questions about any of the repair techniques or whatever, post them here or PM them and I will get back to you.

mokoloco · Post by **mokoloco** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:04 am

I know the crew from Abyss is out until 1/2/07...but might be worth the wait to talk to them...Lorna is not the old!, this should not have happen especially with what they told me when I ordered my B10 about the "newer" joints that have "constant adjustment" to prevent just this sort of thing...just my 2Cents...best of luck!

rentell · Post by **rentell** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:42 am

hi Poet

As Midi said unless it really bothers you or it does come apart fully it may be best to leave well alone.

Body 4 which is the newest and stiffest is now beginning to loosen up as the joints wear in and while the left shoulder is still posable the right one is now floppy as you describe.

As I am sure you know all the joints will loosen up in time.

Old #7 my first doll is now just like a rag doll but a thousand times heavier but being so floppy the movement for posing is so life like its uncanny.

So what I am really trying to say is loose joints are inevitable but can add an unexpected illusion of reality.

If you do go in let us know what you find, I think yours would be the first documented repair of a shoulder joint ....... good luck.

mytime · Post by **mytime** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:22 am

Hi All,

Poet I agree on Rentell and Midnight, cutting her open for only a joint that has got some free play is not a good idea.
But if the joint is broken or if the nut has got from the bolt and thus the joint can not support the silicone arm any more, then you need to have that repaired (by either yourself, Slate, or Abyss).
I don't know wat is in the new skeleton for shoulder joint. I think its a joint simular to the knee joint (a joint that exists out of 2 joints so that it can bend and can turn, made from the new "thin steel plates" to keep friction.
Here a picture from Rentels doll of the new type knee joint (remark this shows the joint best, but right side its welded by Rentell to the shaft, with new joint there is that resin block on the right side too:

Wats good with them?
I think the thin layers of steel can give more friction than the old type of joint which was simply two pieces joined together with a bolt and a nut, one U shaped piece and one piece that fits between them.
Wats wrong with them?
Not difficult seems to me. I wonder why they don't change this but if they had applied at least one curved spring washer behind the washers then the joint probably whould have kept its posability a lot longer.
Some reading about spring washers learned me the following:
Spring washers keep 90% of the friction / tension on the bolt while it is in the same situation without the spring washer only 10%.
Maybe its me but a thing I don't understand is why those are not being applied on this joints.
Another disadvantage of this thin steel plates type joint is that the thin plates can IMO never be fit that strong to the rest of the doll as the old type of joint which was much beefyer there.
Although not reported much (I've only seen this knee joint of Rentell till now) they will break on places where the old joint did not break and the repair will be difficult if that happens.
That brings me to the last disadvantage of this new type of joint, it does break instead of running loose, and that causes difficult repairs.
Any way, be carefull with the dolls, don't put much stress on joints especially not sidewards stress, cause that may cause the shafts break (I think were the plated joint meets the shaft).

Mytime & Helen

Poet · Post by **Poet** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:04 pm

Thanks all. Look, I know joints get looser over time but this was a dramatic loosening i.e. became loose in short time. Now I have been thinking. Shoulder joint, I can feel a loose nut or something under the silicone on the left shoulder. I believe the nut has come off the bolt. The bolt is holding the arm in place with no tension due to the missing nut.

I can feel it in there.....Now conversely the right shoulder is getting stiffer & stiffer in the same motions (abduction / adductuon) go figure.....also that is one thing about locking washers, they can grab, stick & actually casuse tightening along a bolt & nut if forces R being applied to cause rotation & the locking washer stops the movement in one direction or the other.

But I digress. Hmmm, well, I will monitor this, if I go in there I will provide a photo tutorial of same. As for 'new' joints Ireally don't know if Lorna has new joints or what? She was manufactured around April / May 06'. Poet

mytime · Post by **mytime** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:39 pm

Hi Poet,

Its pity to hear this is happening with sexy Lorna.
I too don't know if Lorna has "the last" joint type.
Any way watever you do, this sounds to me like a nut that has run loose from the bolt. Best is first to get advice from Abyss and don't use the doll till then, the bolt is still in the joint so the arm will not hang on solely silicone.
If you cut and repair this, its very adviceable to:
1) disasemble the whole joint, if you don't next time the bolt that is now not loose will run loose tomorrow, I've had that with Helen, I had to cut twice in her neck.
2) clean the bolts and the inside of the nuts with acetone
3) When reasembling apply lock tite to lock the nuts, that will help to avoid running them loose again.

Mytime & Helen

Mr_Gasket · Post by **Mr_Gasket** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:47 am

mytime wrote:its very adviceable to:
1) disasemble the whole joint, if you don't next time the bolt that is now not loose will run loose tomorrow, I've had that with Helen, I had to cut twice in her neck.
2) clean the bolts and the inside of the nuts with acetone
3) When reasembling apply lock tite to lock the nuts, that will help to avoid running them loose again.

This sounds like good advice indeed!

If you can truly feel the nut inside her shoulder floating around, (this seems likely) this should be a fairly easy fix.

I would DEFINITELY take both the bolt and nut all the way out and clean them well in acetone (soak them in it). Then, when you reassemble, use loctite on the end of the bolt just before the nut goes on. This will require the bolt and nut to be CLEAN and free of any debris. Also, if you can find any, I would advise putting in a couple spring washers to keep tension on the joint, if possible. When I tightened both of Vicki's wrists, I added spring washers under the bolt's head and under the nut. Hopefully this will help keep the joint tight for a long time to come. See my post about the locknuts and spring washers HERE...

mytime · Post by **mytime** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:31 am

Hi all.

Mr Gasket wrote:

I would advise putting in a couple spring washers to keep tension on the joint, if possible. When I tightened both of Vicki's wrists, I added spring washers under the bolt's head and under the nut.

After reading some about them I can't understand why they are not applied default in the skeleton...
Further I can understand why they don't use castelled lock nuts, the assembling of the skeleton gets more difficult then, and the cotter pin may work itself trough the silicone, though when its bend around the nut I think that risk is not so big. Main reason must be in that it adds more work to skeleton assembly.
Any way I am still thinking about building one time a skeleton with spring washers and castelled locked nuts.

Mytime & Helen

beavis6363 · Post by **beavis6363** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:27 am

Some thoughts from the organized chaos that is my mind. I have posted in another thread at one time that the use of wear resistant washers should be implemented between the rotating plates. A material like peek would probably work very well and resist wear as the moving parts are put through range of motion. As for the lock washers or spring washers, I agree they should be used but I think for a benefit beyond their intended function of simply preventing loosening.

Here is my concept, grab your hard hats and hold on. The joints could be assembled to snug including the spring washer, however, I propose using a nut that has been modified with a set screw (the nut would be drilled and tapped through the side 4-40, 6-32). Once the joint is assembled, the nut which has done it's job during assembly of having drawn the plates together, can then be rendered static with the set screw and the spring washer (now under pre-load) will continue to take up slack as the joint wears. The castle nut idea is a little tricky as the rotational relationship of the nut to bolt would have to be "just so" on every assembly so the pin could be slid through.

Beavis

rentell · Post by **rentell** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:04 am

My advice ..... WELD the bastards, that will stop them farting in church !

Me and my trusty arc welder

Everhard · Post by **Everhard** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:48 am

It might also be worth contacting Abyss, if you have not already done so. They cannot always help, but sometimes they can steer you in the right direction.

Yes, it sounds like a nut has come off.

Mr_Gasket · Post by **Mr_Gasket** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:06 pm

mytime wrote:I wonder why they don't change this but if they had applied at least one curved spring washer behind the washers then the joint probably whould have kept its posability a lot longer.
Some reading about spring washers learned me the following:
Spring washers keep 90% of the friction / tension on the bolt while it is in the same situation without the spring washer only 10%.
Maybe its me but a thing I don't understand is why those are not being applied on this joints.

If you look at Thomas' drawing of the knee joint currently in production, (seen HERE), you will note that part #5 is a plated Belleville Washer. There are 2 on each side of the bolts that hold tension on the joint. Now these are present in the design drawing, but I don't know if they are actually used in production.

So these spring washers would keep tension better than regular flat washers.

mytime wrote:That brings me to the last disadvantage of this new type of joint, it does break instead of running loose, and that causes difficult repairs. Any way, be carefull with the dolls, don't put much stress on joints especially not sidewards stress, cause that may cause the shafts break (I think were the plated joint meets the shaft).

This is a good point. I don't care much if joints loosen over time, or things like that. But, one BIG failing point on this era RD joint is the shaft that allows the rotation. Vicki's right hip joint had the shaft snap 5 weeks after she arrived.

Rentell had the SAME SHAFT snap off at the SAME PLACE inside Betty's Knee.

Betty's hip also came apart, although the shaft itself was not snapped.