New Skeleton by WM with double hinged knees and elbows

[staycool64]

Looks to be a great Idea, but hopefully the new skeleton doesn't cause a problem with standing, as your doll ages and the joints loosen up dolls tend to not stand as well because the leg joints being to loose could be a big problem. W e shall see!! I still think the ball joint type skeleton is the way to go.

[Silicone-Jay]

Would love to see a demonstration video

[Liz_xxx]

Hi Ted and WM

Thanks for responding regarding the plastic knee caps . Not all plastics would melt , some are thermoplastic , others are thermosetting. Then there are composites such as GRP (Fibreglass) . I would have no issue with steel knee caps if shaped to avoid cutting the TPE , no sharp edges. This smoothing of edges should be applied to foot and hand plates as well . I don't see how the double jointed knees or elbows would be any improvement (regarding cutting through TPE) compared to single joint hinges . The key point is a lot of weight is felt on a small surface area of the hinge .

Best regards,

Liz x

[DexterQuest]

My latest jinsan doll came with this feature. It's really cool. I hope motts improvements come. The upgraded hand is what everyone is watching for. Then fix eye bulge problem with head skull having eye sockets.

I can then easily show off a quality doll to my friends and I think their adoption can go more mainstream.

[Solutionary]

The increased flexibility is nice and all but your fingers only last a month or two at best so why aren't you starting there?

I have a WM158D and really want a WM166C but I won't be purchasing one until the finger problem is fixed.

I feel the same way. I certainly appreciate any improvements in the skeletons but 'THE HANDS ARE TERRIBLE!" I am not buying another WM doll either until the hands are fixed.

[Booty Call Dolls]

The breaks is how they were welded at the END of hand plate.
These are different.
Might be better
It all deals with laws of torque
Best,
Jeff

[BWheeler1]

Jeff, I have three WM dolls, one from early 2016 and two from mid 2018. I have removed the finger wires from all three because they broke. They are NOT welded. They are straight wire inside coiled wire, like a hand choke cable. They are glued into the palm plate with an epoxy and wrapped with string so the TPE sticks to it. I know because I had to remove that epoxy from all of them. I just got through cutting the TPE hands off of my 2016 doll at the wrists, forming molds from one of my others, and pouring new hands on her. I had both of her palm plates wide out in the open. There is nothing welded inside the hands. The coils around the straight wires are supposed to keep them from breaking. What happens is the wire breaks inside and the wire pulls out of the coil. It's a crap design, and a new palm plate isn't going to change that unless it comes with a new finger design that doesn't include wires. I don't see where you're getting "laws of torque", that doesn't apply here. It's a simple matter of brittle wires that if you bend them a few times, they break. What NEEDS to happen is the fingers need to be made from steel rod stock of about 1/4" and there needs to be a hinge at each digit, with a hinge/swivel where each finger meets the palm plate. It's not hard to figure out. As soon as I have time, I'm going to make them myself for my girls. They'll just be time consuming to make. Which is EXACTLY why WM won't do it. They're never going to put that kind of work into these dolls as long as people keep buying them anyway. We're talking 15 joints for each hand... 10 hinge joints and 5 hinge/swivel joints. No way they're doing that because they'd have to jack up their prices higher than anyone in their right mind would want to pay. And apparently also because they just don't care enough to do it because as I said, they're still selling dolls.

[avante]

Ey BigChill, Thanks for elaborating : this was exactly what I'm kinda fearing with the SS option...hence why the 'just' double joints would be a even better option I think...

One question : I was basically thinking of getting shrugging shoulders, since my current / the 'normal skeleton' elbow joint doesnt allow for much 'tit holding of her own' (also considering tj and her hand position-possibilities). So I think this feature (double elbow joint) might prove really helpful in that regard right? Would you guys still advise to get ss + dbl. elb. for better motion, or could this new skeleton alone already 'solve my need's ??

I'm pretty new to dolls but being honest I find the shrugging shoulders a complete pain in the arse
The hands and shoulders are the only gripes I have with my 166c
Might just be me but one side always drops too low and I end up raising it,rotating it a number of times to get it to come back down level with the other shoulder.
Next doll will not have SS

@ BCD and BWheeler; I too dont think they're welded; have never seen it and def. mine also isnt. Funny thing is; copper should be able to take some bending (should not fatigue crack all that easy), but I guess with it being set in the steel/epoxy and getting bend over/while against steel, make them brack -indeed brittle crack, but I do kinda feel like fatigue or stress crack-.

It's gets real shitty right; if you pay attention to the point of not even touching the fingers, and they still break...I still remember posing my gal with hand to the wall; plate + finger pointing up...being okey...and then 2 minutes later all of a sudden 2 wires had broken...total WTF moment + also learning that with this current desing; the wires do JUST break!

The design you mention sounds nice, could be done, could also be made a little bit less 'good' version to keep cost lower. Still, really we're not talking 1500,- -> 2000,- because of this, more like tens of dollars maybe one hundred; it's all cheap steel easy to cast parts anyways imo.

Really 'we' as 'the doll owners' have been buying/accepting crap (underneath) for years aka are fine with it, as far as the manufacturers are concerned. Things are shifting a bit now, praise the lord, with some other manufacturers getting better quality/durability as major selling points. I do 100% feel like people would pay more for better dolls, shit I pay a reasonable amount more for more durable hand without a doubt; allot of folk would I bet.

But yeah I feel similar about WM's business approach here; why invest in making a better product, if you're selling like crazy...well guess the answer to that is; if your competitors do just that, you end up needing to either follow or get left behind. I'm definitely glad to read WM is doing at least some catching up, they're still the best to me in some aspects, I'm just still rather amazed they're not the first to do these kind of things (like the skeleton)...since now they have to catch up instead of making it hard for their competitors to catch up with them.

Jeff, I have three WM dolls, one from early 2016 and two from mid 2018. I have removed the finger wires from all three because they broke. They are NOT welded. They are straight wire inside coiled wire, like a hand choke cable. They are glued into the palm plate with an epoxy and wrapped with string so the TPE sticks to it. I know because I had to remove that epoxy from all of them. I just got through cutting the TPE hands off of my 2016 doll at the wrists, forming molds from one of my others, and pouring new hands on her. I had both of her palm plates wide out in the open. There is nothing welded inside the hands. The coils around the straight wires are supposed to keep them from breaking. What happens is the wire breaks inside and the wire pulls out of the coil. It's a crap design, and a new palm plate isn't going to change that unless it comes with a new finger design that doesn't include wires. I don't see where you're getting "laws of torque", that doesn't apply here. It's a simple matter of brittle wires that if you bend them a few times, they break. What NEEDS to happen is the fingers need to be made from steel rod stock of about 1/4" and there needs to be a hinge at each digit, with a hinge/swivel where each finger meets the palm plate. It's not hard to figure out. As soon as I have time, I'm going to make them myself for my girls. They'll just be time consuming to make. Which is EXACTLY why WM won't do it. They're never going to put that kind of work into these dolls as long as people keep buying them anyway. We're talking 15 joints for each hand... 10 hinge joints and 5 hinge/swivel joints. No way they're doing that because they'd have to jack up their prices higher than anyone in their right mind would want to pay. And apparently also because they just don't care enough to do it because as I said, they're still selling dolls.

[avante]

Good to see someone from WM reading and responding on here .
This is the first in like 4-6 attempts I've ever been talked back to by WM; so that's nice for a change .

Just to be sure: the current skeleton options are:
a) normal skeleton - no shrugging shoulders and no double joints
b) 'new' skeleton - with shrugging shoulder and with double joints

and specifically not c) skeleton without shrugging shoulders but with double joints : this option is NOT available/offered by WM, if I understand you correct?

Hi,

From what I was told, the new skeleton will be like in the first photo WITH shrugging shoulder included at no extra cost. So you will get the maximal range of movement with all the new models of Dolls. If you don't want the shrugging shoulder feature, you will need to ask your favorite vendor to expressly order the old skeleton.

One question : I was basically thinking of getting shrugging shoulders, since my current / the 'normal skeleton' elbow joint doesnt allow for much 'tit holding of her own' (also considering tj and her hand position-possibilities). So I think this feature (double elbow joint) might prove really helpful in that regard right? Would you guys still advise to get ss + dbl. elb. for better motion, or could this new skeleton alone already 'solve my need's ??

[BWheeler1]

It would be more the time and work involved in it than the cost of materials. I mean, it would be another 30 joints between the two hands. Also, the hands are not the same size on all dolls. When I cast molds for the new hands on my 140, I used my 156c to make the molds because their hands were the same size. The hands on my 157b were slightly bigger. So the fingers would have to be different for each different hand size. Now, like you said, they could cut costs on it a bit. They could do away with the hinge/swivel idea I mentioned where the fingers meet the plate because the swivel part would only be so the doll could spread her fingers out. They could just have them bend there so the fingers close and not worry about spreading. And it would also be much different for them to have these digits and pins mass produced as opposed to one guy in a small fabrication shop making each digit and drilling all the holes separately. I'm just not sure they're willing to put that much more work into it when the fact that they still sell dolls makes it almost like "it's not worth it, why bother?". But if they had some way of knowing that hands like this would make their sales go up, that would probably change things. It's just business. These new double joints really are a good idea and really will increase range of motion. But from the standpoint of difficulty to make and cost, they're not much different than the old single joints. Which is great for a manufacturer because they get a good selling point without much change to process. Fingers with a joint at each digit would be much more of a cost and process change.

[ppeter]

Tedd - very good idea! My Rebecca has this same knee problem as your doll. Also it would be great on elbow too. Just saying

[BWheeler1]

This is one of Kelsi's old hands with one jointed finger that I made to test the design. It seems good enough to warrant making the rest of the fingers and new palm plate for a complete prototype.

[SubmissiveDolls]

Nice upgrade WM . any thought to make all dolls feet at least 23 cm long ? So they would fill a U.S. size 5 womans open toed high heel shoe.

Size 5 is the smallest size out there that has numerous styles colors and still average price

Goggle says a woman 5'6" tall is on average a size 9 shoe ...... lets at least get these beauties to a size 5. so we dont have to hunt for smaller size shoes, that are expensive and dont have as much nice styles and colors..... Only makes your dolls more sexier in pics... meaning more sales $$$$

[CMiles76]

My doll just arrived today (163cm H-cup "Jasmine"). She has the shrugging shoulder option (an RSLD promo added that feature and standing feet for free) is there any way to know if she has this new double hinged knee and elbow skeleton? I'm still very new to this and definitely don't want to experiment with her and accidentally break something. So how would you know if she has the new skeleton or not?

[PDutus]

Nice upgrade WM . any thought to make all dolls feet at least 23 cm long ? So they would fill a U.S. size 5 womans open toed high heel shoe.

Size 5 is the smallest size out there that has numerous styles colors and still average price

Goggle says a woman 5'6" tall is on average a size 9 shoe ...... lets at least get these beauties to a size 5. so we dont have to hunt for smaller size shoes, that are expensive and dont have as much nice styles and colors..... Only makes your dolls more sexier in pics... meaning more sales $$$$

I agree. A few of the taller dolls out there have 23cm feet, but not many as far as I can see.