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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:41 am 
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wetsuit wrote:
hi Bianca,

sorry I dont have a clue how to quote a post, I tried it once & it didn't go well

so copy & paste will have to do
quote;
If you find language difficult, for example if you are dyslexic, try the following links before you participate in this forum:

Guide to Grammar and Writing

English Grammar

BBC Skillswise Words:Grammar

DYSLEXIA HELP

Being Dyslexic
unquote:

that is the section that I have a problem with,

it might seem pretty harmless to most, & even a good idea to some

but if you had been through the same years of abuse & bullying,
all the shame of being continualy sent to remedial classes when I clearly had a higher IQ than the tutor,
constantly being down graded for poor spelling & shakey penmanship when the content of the work was otherwise 100% correct,
being cained on an almost daily bassis for being lazey, when it took me longer that everyone else to copy things down off the board,

my adult life hasn't been a lot easier either so I won't go in to any further detail

any one who has been through that would tell you why it's offensive

dyslexia is a dissability the same as any other & as I said in my earlier post it feels as if I am being told that I should get proffesional help befor I try to interact with the normal people

which is like having my nose rubbed in it


I understand your feelings, however Everhard's remark is clearly non-critical, not condescending nor derogatory. As a matter of fact the post is conditional. Therefore If you do not find language difficult or you have dyslexia and it is not affecting your ability to post her, then his post is quite clearly not directed at you.

The same could be said for people with other conditions for the purposes of passing what might be important or helpful information to members who experience a particular condition or are trying to address the needs of someone who does.

For example epilepsy and flashing gifs, color blindness and how choosing of avatars, or ADHD and the effect of rambling sentences all could be considered helpful to some who read the post.

In any kind of reference articles it would be far better to look at it and then, if it does not address your needs or interest consider that it is not directed at you.

While there are things in Everhards post I clearly do not endorse owing to the extreme small percentage of people who may be affected, there are some very pertinent facts that I cannot dispute.

for instance with the greater percentage of members having hi-speed and screen sizes of 1024 or greater, there comes a point where the pleasure of the many outweighs the few left behind. Thus is the case with technology. IF we allow ourselves to be anchored and slowed down while waiting for the entire community to catch up with us in technology, we would essentially be standing still. So we strive to please the majority.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:45 am 
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Hi Everhard - Thanks for responding to Wetsuit.

Cheers,
r4m



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:42 am 
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wetsuit wrote:
I am also sure that it was not your intention to offend anyone

unfortunately you have

I am dyslexic, I was born that way & I shall die that way, I have had 40+ years to come to terms with this fact...


My intention was to get round a problem we have here in Britain the last few years. You simply throw up your hands and say "I'm dyslexic," and that absolves you from any responsibility to read instructions, communicate clearly, or operate machinery safely (because you cannot be expected to understand the instructions). In other words, it is used by many people as a sort of 'get out' clause in everyday life.

We all have strong and weak points. (I am just under the cut-off point of Asperger syndrome.) The whole point of a 'dyslexia' diagnosis is to be able to provide the extra help to that individual where it is needed. That is why I included those links.

However, I am not really qualified to provide such advice. Also I agree it can be read as implying that just because someone suffers from dyslexia they should not take part in the forum, which is not the case. So I deleted that part.

Thanks for your input.

r4m wrote:
Singling out dyslexics in ALL CAPITALS looks like shouting by his own definition (see the links).

The title of one of the pages about dyslexia was itself in all capitals. I have no idea why. I simply copied that text to the link. I considered changing it, but I figured it was written by somebody who knows what they are doing. (Maybe dyslexic people find it easier to read capitals?) Anyway, I deleted those links.

TheConnoisseur wrote:
How about making a rule where there is a size limit- say 800 x 800 or whatever
so we do not have to wonder if we are doing bad.
Maybe that way it would be OK to show pictures in a thread.

Sounds like a good idea. Is 800 x 600 a sensible limit for someone with an old computer, dial up connection, and a low-res screen? (Somewhere there is some statistical info about cmputers used by forum members...) I understand Midiman's point about progressing with technology. I just don't want to make the forum unusable by someone who has an old but adequate computer, which he has to chuck away just because people ignore basic rules of good communication, which people often do by assuming that what they see is the same as what everyone else sees. (I don't know what the answer is to that one.)

TheConnoisseur wrote:
I really dislike looking at a thread and having to go to a link.
I usually just exit the thread.

I guess you cannot please everyone.

Barnabus wrote:
I could care less about how other people spell. If it concerns you so, then maybe you can incorporate a spellcheck/grammarcheck in your forum. Not everyone is going to bother typing in WORD in order to spellcheck, and then copy/paste it to the forum.

Where does it mention spelling? I agree that the copy-and-paste into a word processor to check spelling and grammer is not really an efficient use of one's free time. (Also older computers cannot run a web browser and Word simultaneously.) As a poor speller myself, I feel that as long as the meaning is clear, that is sufficient. (I often write 'poeple' instead of 'people'. I don't understand why the o should come before the e. Why is the o in there anyway?...)



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:44 am 
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I agree a lot with what Everhard has to say. Personally, I think that how you present yourself online says a lot about you. If you exhibit poor grammar, spelling and punctuation, why should anyone listen to what you have to say? I don't listen to people in person who can't piece together a coherent sentence without sounding like they flunked elementary school so I see no need to do the same online.

Typically, if I see people whose posts constantly reflect their inability to communicate clearly and they don't have enough respect for their own native language to use it as intended, then I usually just ignore their posts wholesale.

The problem with most people online nowadays is that they settle for short, poorly written, needlessly condensed and abbreviated garble-speak. In my opinion, if people are going to stink up a forum with poorly written messages they shouldn't bother posting at all.

If you have an opinion and want to express it, respect the forum and do it in a manner that it's clear and understandable.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:57 am 
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hi Everhard

thank you, for your understanding

it was not so much the posted links that I had issue with but the instruction "before you participate in this forum" combined with the links, as you have correctly identified,

if you had said something along the lines of

"if you have dificulties with language or are dyslexic you might find these links helpfull"

then I would not have had a problem & would be more than happy to see the links stay where they were

Quote:
My intention was to get round a problem we have here in Britain the last few years. You simply throw up your hands and say "I'm dyslexic," and that absolves you from any responsibility to read instructions, communicate clearly, or operate machinery safely (because you cannot be expected to understand the instructions). In other words, it is used by many people as a sort of 'get out' clause in everyday life.


I agree with you on this point, if these people realy had an interest in learning they would have someone read the instructions to them, as I have had to do, on many occasions



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:24 am 
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timetraveler1 wrote:
what TheConnoisseur you mean you don't go to my links ... why thats , thats ... unspeakable !! 8O :lol: :lol: :wink:



Hi Timetraveler1- it is just usually a matter of time for me.
My typical visit here lasts 1-2 minutes and I usually do not log in
so links that do not work unless I am logged in understandably get passed over.

I think most of yours work without logging in :D :D


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Barnabus wrote:
I could care less about how they title their thread (other than all caps) as it is not likely the average member here is "investigating" anything. More likely they are just killing time. A thread simply titled "question" will probably draw more views than one which spells out what they need, due to curiosity.

I have not heard of any evidence for those 'likely and 'probably' scenarios (that is, any evidence for or against). I try to adopt the position of someone who is not a computer expert and who does not have a modern computer, and who is using his limited free time to seriously investigate the purchase of a doll. Such individuals might not be the majority of users, but I believe they are the ones we should concentrate on because they can benefit most from the photos and info on this forum.

However, I see the point of the reply. Different individuals with different computer systems use the forum in very different ways. That is why web usability standards and guidelines exist (for web authors) along with guidelines for clear writing (for all writers). This topic attempts to do something similar for forum users. I have amended the first post to incorporate that feedback the best I can.

wetsuit wrote:
...if these people realy had an interest in learning they would have someone read the instructions to them, as I have had to do, on many occasions

I think that is why I am so annoyed by perfectly able people labelling themselves as dyslexic. Those who really do need extra help with reading are often lumped in with the pretenders. The pretenders remind me of those many able-bodied people who park in 'Disabled' parking slots in car parks.

One of the driving forces behind web usability standards (including accessibility) is the harnessing of this highly capable technology to make life easier for those with special needs (including those who suffer from dyslexia). That is why it pains me to see all those web sites with magazine style layouts, fixed fonts, and every pointless gizmo that inhibits clear communication.

doodman wrote:
welll shit i have a itsme kyebord is that a bad thing lol

I had an itsme keyboard a while ago, or at least a cheap keyboard made in Germany. The Germans are known for their precision engineering. Exactly one year and one day after I bought it (one day after its warranty expired) the Caps Lock key failed, then other keys started to fail. Like I said, precision engineering!
:D



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Heh, boys 'n girls 'n dolls, this was really just intended to be support and an idea how to improve the quality of posts. Noone wanted to insult, although I totally see how it can be insulting, if you are dyslexic and read the post. But the basic point is this : Those who take the time to read this thread and reply, those are the ones who probably least need this thread, while those who'd need it don't even care to read.

Wetsuit, I think your spelling / grammar is quite fine. :wink:

For me, personally, I will always understand how people may be bad at grammar, spelling, vocab etc. You never know how hard it is to properly learn a language until you tried. My English is quite fine, I'd say. But that's close to 30 years of learning... And even in my native language I'm far from being free from mistakes. Some are because of slang, some because I speak it by intuition, some are because I just don't care. The last point is what this thread is basically about for me. Yes, the goal of language is to communicate, and as long as others understand it, mission accomplished. The aim of a forum is never to be at school and get the text back with red print all over it. But a lot of mistakes, badly worded sentences and things causing misunderstanding can be avoided it just everyone would use the preview button before they submit. Which is basically what Everhard is talking about. If people can't spell any better or their English isn't any better, sad enough, and noone should mind, if you tried your best. With most people who's posts are a mess to read, you just feel they didn't care.

You can also explain it by looking at the other extreme. Take my posts, for example this one... while the "etiquette"-idea is also about posting something that makes sense, not just some "I'm also here and need more posts", my posts are mostly pretty long. I was told that it sucks and people don't fully read long posts. Well, maybe I have an idea in mind if I post, but also, it's just me trying to do complete sentences to avoid ending up with saying something I didn't want to say.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:43 pm 
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flavortang wrote:
Everyone is offended about everything nowadays. I'm offended that people are offended. I'm thinking about calling a lawyer.


flavortang wrote:
I agree a lot with what Everhard has to say. Personally, I think that how you present yourself online says a lot about you. If you exhibit poor grammar, spelling and punctuation, why should anyone listen to what you have to say? I don't listen to people in person who can't piece together a coherent sentence without sounding like they flunked elementary school so I see no need to do the same online.

Typically, if I see people whose posts constantly reflect their inability to communicate clearly and they don't have enough respect for their own native language to use it as intended, then I usually just ignore their posts wholesale.

The problem with most people online nowadays is that they settle for short, poorly written, needlessly condensed and abbreviated garble-speak. In my opinion, if people are going to stink up a forum with poorly written messages they shouldn't bother posting at all.

If you have an opinion and want to express it, respect the forum and do it in a manner that it's clear and understandable.


I couldn't agree more. Unless someone is intentionally pointing at you and your qualities with the intention of insulting you there is no need to be offended. Do I get insulted if someone says nigger, or cracker during their conversation (I am black and white by the way)? No I don't. If someone points at me and calls me either with the intent of insulting me then there is a problem.

While overlooking those who cannot help the correctness of their spelling and grammar, I think that everyone should strive to be as articulate as possible when posting. Just as Flavortang stated, I don't waste my time on people who do not speak correctly either. Not mastering your own language says a lot about a person, all of which is negative. I think we're all guilty of quickly typing a message and posting because we felt strongly about a particular subject, but everyone should (as a few mentioned) hit the 'Preview' button to read their message before posting. I catch most of my errors that way. I then read my message again after posting and edit if I need to. It is frustrating to understand what someone's thought or point is when their spelling and grammar is awful. Missing punctuation and lack of capitalization makes understanding a post difficult too since the reader is left to insert their own, which can change the meaning of the sentence.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:13 pm 
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I first thought Everhards initial post has been a message from management, which has been discussed throughout in the management forum, but now it seems to me its more like a starting point for a discussion?

My personal opinions about the points:

I think using the preview first is just good advice to everyone. Every time I preview my posts I find some errors I didnt spot before, and most of the times I dont preview I regret it. Please take your own time of reading your post if you expect others to read it :)

About the pictures:
I agree with please not posting large pictures, especially if these images are very wide, as this makes the text rather unreadable - if I have to scroll left and right to read every single line of a thread just because it contains one oversized photo this makes me quite a bit angry about it.

But then I am happy about everyone who posts pictures, so I am not too much against this. If making a rule about not posting too big images would keep people from posting some images at all I dont think its good.

I like the "link to larger version" images; I just open the image in a new browser tab and can go on reading the texts in the thread.

I personally would like to add that if quoting someone else's post its maybe a good idea to reduce the quoted text to the part one replies to - especially if it contains pictures. Having to scroll over the same row of say four pictures again and again is a quite tedious, as pretty as they might be. (Of course if you reply to a specific picture please include it in the quote.)

Oh, and I like to read long posts, no problem with that :)

I am not sure if the uppercase rule is needed: I guess its ok to use uppercase sometimes as "stylistic device" if one wants to be loud. Maybe it has been a bit overused in thread titles lately?
Of course there are some people which have the habit to write everything in uppercase, but I have to go a long way back in time to remember the last time I have seen someone with this habit on this forum (maybe I just missed some posts.)

I have no problem with the abbreviations; even when I was new I got the meaning of most of them - not at the first time, but after reading a few posts.

As for the "So what" test I somewhat disagree, maybe for personal reasons, as most of my posts fall in the "so what" category.
If it is a rather serious thread I can see posts without actual content are annoying; on the other hand there are the many "birthdays" and other fun threads, where nearly all replies dont have much content - I think its ok to post rather pointless there, nobody expects much serious content anyway.

So far my feedback about the idea.
Thanks Everhard for starting the topic and come somewhat under fire.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:12 am 
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tchon wrote:
I first thought Everhards initial post has been a message from management, which has been discussed throughout in the management forum, but now it seems to me its more like a starting point for a discussion?

It was discussed by management first, but inspection by a broader spectrum of people always uncovers faults that lead to improvement, in my experience. (Even in the management feedback there is a variety of opposing views, which is normal for an international communication medium that people use across a spectrum of hardware/software configurations.)

There are exceptions to the 'So what?' rule and I have amended that part already. It is the extreme cases that are the most annoying. In the middle ground, there is no hard and fast right and wrong. For example, I don't read topics announcing that someone ordered a doll. For me it does not pass the 'So what?' test. However, for others in the same situation (or shortly to be in that situation) it does include relevant issues, such as the anxiety of the wait and preparations for taking delivery.

Yes, I think it is a long time since anyone posted body text in all capitals in this forum, but quite a lot of topic titles are all capitals.

Good point about quoting vast amounts while responding only to a small part. Most of it comes under the unmbrella of remembering to view it from others' perspectives, which most of us have to train ourselves to do. (Presumably that is because the small groups in which we evolved almost guaranteed a large amount of common experience, so your meaning was never likely to be misunderstood.)

You can never please everyone. I read some research showing that, while a lot of people find horizontal scroll bars render a whole page of posts unreadable, some people don't mind them at all. Thse individuals read text very slowly in a 'non scanning' way anyway. They have no idea why anyone would find horizontal scroll bars annoying.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:10 pm 
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so, is this a management decision? or just your observation/wishes?

I'm curious if miss spellings or grammatical errors, or, forbid boring posts, will be corrected by managment?

or is this something you plan to do on your own? "tidy up the place"

or will the offender be sent notice to straighten up on the spelling?

and will there be repercussions for repeat miss spellers?

I could cut & paste mis spellings from everyone here including midiman, you, myself etc. but why bother?

I find the posts made by a fellow member written at 2 AM after they had a few just as interesting as any other post, though admittedly kind of hard to read,

I guess I'm asking, is there now an official grammer police presence on this site?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:38 pm 
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I don't know why a few people a really trying to rip everhard 'a new one' over this. There were no threats made regarding those who don't use correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Midiman himself said that people can choose to follow or ignore these suggestions. It will make reading posts a lot more enjoyable if correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling are used (not to mention pictures that fit the screen). Everyone who finds these things humanly possible should try to do them out of consideration for everyone else who will be reading posts/threads. If it isn't possible for you to use proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation because of a language translation program, a mental issue, or because you are tanked then you should simply try to do the best you can. At least trying shows that you are being considerate of those who will read your post. If you want to be a jerk by slopping anything down, and calling it a post I suppose that you can do that too. Like Midiman said earlier (or perhaps in another thread), no one is being forced to do these things.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:49 pm 
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jonnydisco wrote:
so, is this a management decision? or just your observation/wishes?

As Incognito says, it is just advice. It received general, but not unanimous, approval in the admin discussion. And, as several people have pointed out, the people who really need to take it on board are the least likely to read it. I can only hope that those new to online dialog (and who are willing and able to learn) will use it as food for thought and, hopefully, improve their posts.

Nobody here has time to go around correcting others' posts except where they break the rules.

jonnydisco wrote:
I'm curious if miss spellings or grammatical errors, or, forbid boring posts, will be corrected by managment?

and will there be repercussions for repeat miss spellers?

I could cut & paste mis spellings from everyone here including midiman, you, myself etc. but why bother?


As I already explained, I never mentioned spelling in the original topic.

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(I am black and white by the way)

You were one of those guys in that edition of Star Trek (with William Shatner as the original Captain Slog)! Two guys whose faces (and presumably bodies) were half black and half white; the dividing line vertically down the middle. Kirk initially could not see why one was the master and the other the slave... (Ridiculous stuff, but it stuck in my mind all these years!)



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Everhard wrote:

As I already explained, I never mentioned spelling in the original topic.


Spelling actually should have been brought up. Its here now, so lets not sweep it under the carpet because it too is an issue that can be avoided with just a smidge of effort.



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